Topic: Scouts

[jaypee]

but I could never reconcile the shoddy rationale for why gay men weren't allowed to be scout leaders.

During a Q&A session at a training, I heard the rationale that being openly gay forces your views upon everyone else, and that is what is prohibited by the Scouts. Riiiiigggghhhhht...

That's actually a lot more enlightened than the rationale I heard, which was that you couldn't trust gay men around young boys.

[Eternally Learning]

I was in Royal Rangers which was waaaayyy more pushy on the religion.  I'm considering the Scouts for my boys so I am very interested in the religious pledges; any idea where they might list the religious requirements.

[Citizen Skeptic]

I was in Royal Rangers which was waaaayyy more pushy on the religion.  I'm considering the Scouts for my boys so I am very interested in the religious pledges; any idea where they might list the religious requirements.

Maybe on their site?

http://www.scouting.org/

I'm too lazy to read through it though.

[Eternally Learning]

I was in Royal Rangers which was waaaayyy more pushy on the religion.  I'm considering the Scouts for my boys so I am very interested in the religious pledges; any idea where they might list the religious requirements.

Maybe on their site?

http://www.scouting.org/

I'm too lazy to read through it though.

Me too.  Oh well .

[st3class]

http://usscouts.org/aboutbsa/rp.asp

Here's the actual wording.

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/sitecore/content/home/guidetoadvancement/appendix/charterandbylaws.aspx

Edit: Full wording and link to BSA website

[Oh Henry]

Exactly how hard is it to do all the cool things that Scouting offers (hiking, camping, fishing, science-activities, first-aid, etc etc etc) without actually being in the Scouts?

[Halleyscomet/Wakefield]

Exactly how hard is it to do all the cool things that Scouting offers (hiking, camping, fishing, science-activities, first-aid, etc etc etc) without actually being in the Scouts?

Most the baseline activities themselves aren't too complex to arrange. It's the group dynamic that's hard to manage without a larger organization. Five kids competing against each other is a completely different dynamic than those same five kids going on to compete against other troops.

http://www.troop97.net/scout_like.htm

It's interesting that in the US, those organizations that compete with the Girl Scouts of the USA typically feel that GSUSA is too liberal, and tend to be conservative and often Christian only, while those organizations that compete with the Boy Scouts of America typically feel that BSA is too conservative/restrictive, and tend to be liberal and to stress their inclusivity.

This looks even more promising:

http://www.campfire.org

WHO CAN BE INVOLVED?

Camp Fire USA is unique because we are not an exclusive club. We have evolved to welcome everyone, regardless of race, gender, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity.

We are inclusive and open to every person in each community we serve. We work to realize the dignity and worth of every individual and to eliminate human barriers based on all assumptions that prejudge individuals. In addition, our program standards are designed and implemented to reduce sex-role, racial and cultural stereotypes and to foster positive intercultural relationships.

One of the two chapters in Massachusetts is a stone's throw from where I live. It has a Zoo Camp held at the zoo where we have a family membership:

ZooCamp 2012

My son is still to young for that program, but I think I know where I'll look when he's old enough to contemplate scouting.

[Hanes]

Exactly how hard is it to do all the cool things that Scouting offers (hiking, camping, fishing, science-activities, first-aid, etc etc etc) without actually being in the Scouts?

Most the baseline activities themselves aren't too complex to arrange. It's the group dynamic that's hard to manage without a larger organization. Five kids competing against each other is a completely different dynamic than those same five kids going on to compete against other troops.

Why does it always have to be a competition?


Anyways, I was a cub scout, and a boy scout for a few years and I was christian at the time.  I was on camp staff for a summer and kept my atheism to myself.

I wouldn't have my kid be a scout.  For one thing, many scout troops are very focused on advancing in rank and mass producing Eagle Scouts.  "Moar badges!"  I could give two shits and I don't think it's a good thing to convince kids to care about meaningless crap like that.  Then there's the religion thing, which is an obvious turnoff.  Plus, if my hypothetical son turned out to be a homosexual, I wouldn't want him to be ostracised for it.

And also boyscout "camping" sucks.  Bigtime.  As a kid I would go camping with my family, and boyscout camping was always lame in comparison.  Too much structure, and bullshit liability rules about everything.

[Vincegamer]

but I could never reconcile the shoddy rationale for why gay men weren't allowed to be scout leaders.

During a Q&A session at a training, I heard the rationale that being openly gay forces your views upon everyone else, and that is what is prohibited by the Scouts. Riiiiigggghhhhht...

And did anyone ask the instructor to stop being openly heterosexual because he was forcing that view upon everyone else?

I heard a comment once by a gay man who said he asked his straight friends to try just for one day being "in the closet" about their heterosexuality.  Never use the word "wife" or "husband" or "girlfriend" or wear a wedding ring (this was before any state had recognized same-sex marriage) or flirt with anyone or steal a glance at an attractive person if anyone's around etc. etc. 

[Citizen Skeptic]

Exactly how hard is it to do all the cool things that Scouting offers (hiking, camping, fishing, science-activities, first-aid, etc etc etc) without actually being in the Scouts?

Most the baseline activities themselves aren't too complex to arrange. It's the group dynamic that's hard to manage without a larger organization. Five kids competing against each other is a completely different dynamic than those same five kids going on to compete against other troops.

Why does it always have to be a competition?


Anyways, I was a cub scout, and a boy scout for a few years and I was christian at the time.  I was on camp staff for a summer and kept my atheism to myself.

I wouldn't have my kid be a scout.  For one thing, many scout troops are very focused on advancing in rank and mass producing Eagle Scouts.  "Moar badges!"  I could give two shits and I don't think it's a good thing to convince kids to care about meaningless crap like that.  Then there's the religion thing, which is an obvious turnoff.  Plus, if my hypothetical son turned out to be a homosexual, I wouldn't want him to be ostracised for it.

And also boyscout "camping" sucks.  Bigtime.  As a kid I would go camping with my family, and boyscout camping was always lame in comparison.  Too much structure, and bullshit liability rules about everything.

I, on the otherhand, loved it. And the mountaineering explorer post I belonged to just focused on bagging peaks and rock climbing. I didn't enjoy being a cub scout as much but it helped me to integrate into american culture quicker.

[Hanes]

Exactly how hard is it to do all the cool things that Scouting offers (hiking, camping, fishing, science-activities, first-aid, etc etc etc) without actually being in the Scouts?

Most the baseline activities themselves aren't too complex to arrange. It's the group dynamic that's hard to manage without a larger organization. Five kids competing against each other is a completely different dynamic than those same five kids going on to compete against other troops.

Why does it always have to be a competition?


Anyways, I was a cub scout, and a boy scout for a few years and I was christian at the time.  I was on camp staff for a summer and kept my atheism to myself.

I wouldn't have my kid be a scout.  For one thing, many scout troops are very focused on advancing in rank and mass producing Eagle Scouts.  "Moar badges!"  I could give two shits and I don't think it's a good thing to convince kids to care about meaningless crap like that.  Then there's the religion thing, which is an obvious turnoff.  Plus, if my hypothetical son turned out to be a homosexual, I wouldn't want him to be ostracised for it.

And also boyscout "camping" sucks.  Bigtime.  As a kid I would go camping with my family, and boyscout camping was always lame in comparison.  Too much structure, and bullshit liability rules about everything.

I, on the otherhand, loved it. And the mountaineering explorer post I belonged to just focused on bagging peaks and rock climbing. I didn't enjoy being a cub scout as much but it helped me to integrate into american culture quicker.

It may be that the scout troops out in the mountains are a different beast than those in the Chicago suburbs.

[Oh Henry]

I wouldn't have my kid be a scout.  For one thing, many scout troops are very focused on advancing in rank and mass producing Eagle Scouts.  "Moar badges!"  I could give two shits and I don't think it's a good thing to convince kids to care about meaningless crap like that.  Then there's the religion thing, which is an obvious turnoff.  Plus, if my hypothetical son turned out to be a homosexual, I wouldn't want him to be ostracised for it.

And also boyscout "camping" sucks.  Bigtime.  As a kid I would go camping with my family, and boyscout camping was always lame in comparison.  Too much structure, and bullshit liability rules about everything.

This is my feeling and experience as well.

I just don't want to provide support, financial or otherwise, to an organization that is openly and stubbornly bigoted against atheists and gays. 

And for that matter, this whole concept of boys over here and girls over there is outdated. 

I was a cub scout too, and I thought it sucked.  Too many afternoons making glitter-macaroni picture frames or having three-legged relay races, and not enough of the stuff featured in my Boy's Life magazine.  On the other hand, I could go camping and fishing with my brother anytime I wanted.  And I didn't need to wait until I was a certain age or sit through a knife safety class to do so.  So, I bugged out and had more fun on my own.

My son is five.  We like to hike, sky watch, make things, collect rocks, plant seeds, etc.  I just don't see a need to pass him off to someone else to do those things.  I understand the value of teamwork and leadership, but that can be gotten through sports and other activities.  I honestly think the only thing scouts has to offer is an incentives program - badges and ranks - and frankly, peer-pressure and keeping-up-with-the-Jones' are not things I want to emphasize.



 

[Shibboleth]

So I am an avid hiker and I plan on doing a through hike at some point in my life. One thing that I have to say about scouts is they do do a good job of teaching "without a trace" and "pack it in, pack it out".

When the kids get older I will teach them how to make their own ultra-light stove, a survival bracelet out of 550 paracord, how to build a shelter with a tarp that is in many ways better than a tent, etc.

Unfortunately America is a litigious country so with swimming, canoeing, knives, fires, etc. you have to jump through the red tape ropes so you don't get sued.

[gcason]

I went through scouting starting as a Cub Scout and earned Eagle Scout.  I was an atheist by then, but the whole "God and country" didn't bother me. Once a month at meetings, we recited the Scout Oath.  Other than that, religion wasn't discussed at all.

Perhaps other troops focused more on the God aspect.  I know that Mormons are big into scouting these days. But, for me, it was about camping, science, model rockets, woodcraft, first aid, fishing, knot tying, archery, marksmanship, etc, etc...

[Copyleft]

I was in the scouts for many years, made it up to Life Scout (the rank just below Eagle). It was mostly camping and a few clueless stabs at learning other skills such as target shooting, knots, bookbinding, etc. All of our craft projects were pretty crappy (at least, mine were), but the trips were fun.

Then we got a new Scoutmaster who wanted to have a "serious talk" with me about Point #12 in the scout oath: Reverent. Apparently I wasn't living up to that one. I quit right after that.