Author Topic: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year  (Read 23463 times)

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Offline smithkhome

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #375 on: Jun 03, 2012, 11:24:37 AM »
And what drives me absolutely crazy is that when people try to point out that Rebecca is taking things out of context and reading things into what was stated, those people suddenly become misogynists and sexists and anti-women.  It's sort of a huge poisoning the well.

Those types of people exist, but simple disagreement and criticism of one's choice of communicative style does not make me one of them.

Yeah, I hate that reasonable dissent is mixed in with "Oh we're men and we're hardwired to look at boobs so it must be okay". It makes it much easier to equate her detractors with plain misogynists.

Agreed and agreed.

DRmeg-

  BTW...I liked your response about the Jeremy Ian Swiss incident at NECSS. Hopefully, he apologized for it. I think Brian Dunning was involved in a similar incident a few years ago..and I'm fairly sure that he did apologize for it. (Negatively commented on the appearance of a female scientist.)

Belg/Panda-

  You both had thoughtful takes on the current situation. And though you had somewhat different conclusions, it was nice to see that neither of you are boycotting each other!


Offline Belgarath

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #376 on: Jun 03, 2012, 11:41:51 AM »
Thanks smith.   I am boycotting Pandas video game feet because that's a convenient excuse for me being on the east coast of the US and her being on the west coast.    >:D
« Last Edit: Jun 03, 2012, 12:55:12 PM by Belgarath »

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Offline smithkhome

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #377 on: Jun 03, 2012, 11:48:54 AM »
Thanks smith.   I am boycotting Pandas video game feet because that's a convenient excuse for me being on the east coast of the US and he being on the west coast.    >:D

When will it end! :)

"video game FEET"?

Offline Plastique

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #378 on: Jun 03, 2012, 11:54:54 AM »
"She" wouldn't it be?

Offline smithkhome

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #379 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:12:18 PM »
"She" wouldn't it be?

Yeah, I think she has actually been on the podcast.

Offline Shadow Of A Doubt

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #380 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:12:49 PM »
"She" wouldn't it be?

"Her" wouldn't it be?

Offline kikyo

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #381 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:45:39 PM »
Well thanks Belg for summarizing it for people ... I had thought actually reading the stuff that people said would be a starting point, but making it easier for people to do so definitely helps the discussion. I have read just about everything I can find and after reading the blogs directly about DJ Grothe, I understand why he feels the way he does, but I think that because things were aimed at him personally, he's giving them more importance than they really carry.

As of right now, hundreds of women who attended TAM last year are not re-registered. Ascribing those hundreds of decisions to some obscure blog posts and comments to blog posts and one quote in USA Today is not very rational to me. For one thing, it's pretty insulting to these women as skeptics. He is basically saying that hundreds of women are reading blogs and leaping to incorrect conclusions. In other words, women are not attending because they are just not very skeptical! A strange thing to say about skeptics.

He comes to this conclusion because of "dozens of emails" he receives. Some advice for DJ. I work at a company where we receive THOUSANDS of e-mails telling us not to sell tickets to Ringling Brothers because PETA said they were mean to elephants. What we can very easily determine, due to the way our system is set up, is that at least 85% of these e-mails come from people who are not even members of our service. Of the ones who are members of our service, almost all of them have made zero or only one purchase ever. In other words, all of these angry e-mails come from people who are not valuable customers and in most cases are not even our customers at all. We also know that we sell thousands of tickets to Ringling Brothers and make a lot of money from it, so our paying members are totally fine with the elephants and how they are treated. Before leaping to conclusions based on these dozens of e-mails, I wonder if DJ even investigated where these e-mails were coming from and whether they were women who were members of JREF, had ever been to TAM, would ever go to TAM, etc.

I am a member of JREF and I have supported them financially and even conversed with DJ over e-mail. I have never been to TAM. I would be quite happy to detail my reasons if they asked why, but no one ever has. It has never crossed my mind that I would need to tell them why I am not attending, because it's simply a decision I made for various reasons, not something I was upset or angry about or anything. If DJ wants to find out why I'm not going to TAM, ASK me, don't tell me I am leaping to conclusions based on blog posts I never even saw. I'm pretty sure that most of the women who aren't coming to TAM don't hang with baited breath over every piece of blog drama that happens. That's why the reaction of SO many people was "child trafficking - what the hell?" because most regular people don't sit on the internet all day reading every blog comment! I know DJ is intensely aware of these blog posts because they are about him, but I think he should consider that 200+ women deciding not to return to TAM is probably not due to some blog comments.

If he has surveyed over 800 people and none of them felt unsafe at TAM, then perhaps people aren't returning, not because they felt unsafe, but because they simply didn't have a good enough time to come back? Maybe they didn't feel it was ultimately worth the $$$. Again, ASK them. That's the most accurate way to assess how to get them to come back, and businesses do it all the time, JREF can easily follow that model.
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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #382 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:46:19 PM »
I apologize for having been drawn back into "Elevatorgate" via this thread.

My post was not relevant to the specific topic of this thread, and just rehashed old ground.

Sorry.

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Offline Plastique

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #383 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:47:04 PM »
"She" wouldn't it be?

"Her" wouldn't it be?

I'm looking at it, and both seem acceptable. I'm honestly not sure which is right, or whether both are.

Offline Louie

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #384 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:50:00 PM »
Well-put, Kikyo.


Maybe TAM needs some elephants...
"It can't end like this. Tell them I said something." - Pancho Villa's last words (1923).

Offline kikyo

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #385 on: Jun 03, 2012, 12:54:07 PM »
First of all, because I neglected to say so earlier, but KIKYO HI. I don't know that we've had much interaction, but you are a welcome side effect of all this.

Second of all, I see that I have a lot of reading to do on my next day off.

I also want to make a special post to say HI to Panda. I want to come to your video game party.

I would consider going to TAM if there were elephants. Especially if I could ride them. Even more so if there were other animals too. Rebecca likes sloths, perhaps they can consider adding some to the program?
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #386 on: Jun 03, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »
So, point taken Kikyo, and as I said, it wasn't quite as hamhanded as I originally thought, but you cannot hold Rebecca blameless.  This could have been handled much better.   One thing I have learned in my years on this planet is that the absolute best way to affect change is to praise in public, chastise in private.

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Offline Louie

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #387 on: Jun 03, 2012, 01:04:39 PM »
D.J. Grothe: I am not aware of any maltreatment of elephants at TAM. Rumours of the maltreatment of elephants at TAM have been greatly overdrawn by a few prominent, elephant-loving bloggers.
Rebecca: Me, and many others with me, will not be attending TAM because our valid concerns about the maltreatment of elephants are being played down. I myself have seen someone mistreat an elephant in a lift.

Scratch that idea.  :-X
"It can't end like this. Tell them I said something." - Pancho Villa's last words (1923).

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #388 on: Jun 03, 2012, 01:06:30 PM »
D.J. Grothe: I am not aware of any maltreatment of elephants at TAM. Rumours of the maltreatment of elephants at TAM have been greatly overdrawn by a few prominent, elephant-loving bloggers.
Rebecca: Me, and many others with me, will not be attending TAM because our valid concerns about the maltreatment of elephants are being played down. I myself have seen someone mistreat an elephant in a lift.

Scratch that idea.  :-X

Am I going to have to timeline Elephantgate too?

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Offline Louie

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Re: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year
« Reply #389 on: Jun 03, 2012, 01:07:58 PM »
Yes, you'd better get started. It's going to be a big gate.
"It can't end like this. Tell them I said something." - Pancho Villa's last words (1923).