Topic: Rebecca Watson to Not Attend TAM This Year

[goodthink]

Erm no, I was speaking to Kikyo's post.

Then my apologies if I missed it.  Since I apparently did, could you please cut/paste the specific place where kikyo talks about being ready with-weapon-in-hand?

And where she says the reason for doing so is the mere fact that the person "happens to be a man"?

I posted the copy/paste as an edit. Sorry about that.

[Caffiene]

When you see a huge storm cloud approaching, does the thought 'hmm, a storm might be coming' cross your mind, even if you don't take any action beyond perhaps mentally 'readying' yourself for the possibility?   to me, there's absolutely nothing 'irrational' about that.   Nothing irrational about having a "hmm, could be trouble, but it could pass" attitude when such things happen.

I dont think thats an equivalent analogy... It seems to me to be begging the question. Saying that you see a storm cloud coming and thinking "a storm might be coming" is like saying that you see a rapist walking down the street and think they might assault you. If we are just talking about seeing a man walking down the street that would be equivalent to simply seeing a cloud. Its not sensible to assume the man is a rapist or that the cloud is a storm cloud unless you have something that leads you to believe it is likely.

Apart from that, though, I agree. There is nothing wrong with being vigilant and taking precautions. Im just saying that feeling threatened is not a necessary part of that - it is rational to say "there is a chance that this could be trouble", but it is less rational to worry about that chance if, based on available information, that chance is only small.

[kikyo]

If you're not too busy ghostwriting for panda, could you do the same for me?   the same offer of cookies and hugs applies!

Let's skip the writing and just do a bunch of cookies and hugs.
 
I can't believe it's so hard to understand that different people have different experiences in life and those different experiences might make them have different fears or sensitivities. It's sort of basic human psychology. Karyn pretty courageously offered up some really grim personal stories and explained their effect on her. Those effects on her do not make her irrational and they do not make her fears worthy of dismissing.

The subjectiveness of fear and discomfort are what make well-defined sexual harassment policies so important. The policies define what is acceptable behavior and what is not, rather than individual people's subjective fears or desires. And everyone who feels discomfort must be made welcome to report their experiences even if the incident turns out not to be in violation of the policies.

And yes, I put my keys in my hand if I'm ever somewhere completely alone (no one else around) late at night and suddenly there's a man behind me. Like shutting the windows if you see a dark cloud (which may or may not be a storm). Understand, I do not do this if I am walking down the street where normal activity is happening and there just happens to be men there too, or get out a knife every time I see a man. It's a very specific situation that almost never actually happens. And I do this because this is what I was trained to do by the self-defense instructors in model mugging. This is a really common self-defense strategy and it's pretty useless if you wait to see if you will be attacked before you start to fumble around for your keys.

Again, just because I state a circumstance exists where I might be more frightened than normal, doesn't mean I'm walking around like this all the time, casting askew glances at everything with a penis I see. I'm describing a rare situation and in fact, a lot of the time it doesn't even get to the point where I would be scared, because most men seem to know to do something to make themselves not seem threatening. For example, the other night I took my dog out and a man was walking up the street at the same time. He called out a friendly "hello there" so he didn't startle me and I said "hi" back and all was well. Or sometimes a man who is walking behind me will move to the other side of the street.

But here's the whole thing. I don't give a shit whether any of you think this is rational or not. It's not relevant to anything. Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to women how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result. But as long as you turn statements like "I take extra precautions in this very specific situation that has happened maybe a few times in my whole life" to "she grabs a weapon in anticipation of a possible violent encounter because someone happens to be male" then the discourse is never going to go anywhere productive.

[goodthink]

But here's the whole thing. I don't give a shit whether any of you think this is rational or not. It's not relevant to anything. Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to women how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result. But as long as you turn statements like "I take extra precautions in this very specific situation that has happened maybe a few times in my whole life" to "she grabs a weapon in anticipation of a possible violent encounter because someone happens to be male" then the discourse is never going to go anywhere productive.

So stop pretending you're a rational actor and that your actions or perceptions are in anyway anchored to reality.

[Audiophile]

Wow. Just wow.

How one earth does feeling that every man/dude walking downthr streat is a threat not raise a red flag? How come one does not think "woa this just do not make sense"? How come one feel that one has been TAUGHT to act and feel like this?

Being constantly on your guard is probably very unhealthy. Life in these times is stressful enough as is.

This is not to be considere a flame. I'm mearly surprised and a little sad that people are walking around afraid and/or apprehensive all the time. Most people notice that people are afraid and stressed. So I bet that a person that behaves in this manner gets flagged as both a mark and a suspect a lot more often. (I'm sure of the latter, I used to be an MP.)

[goodthink]

I really don't like doing this, because it rarely works out. But I wish you would take a moment and actually let it sink in, what you're saying and what your point is:

Let's skip the writing and just do a bunch of cookies and hugs. I can't believe it's so hard to understand that different people have different experiences in life and those different experiences might make them have different fears or sensitivities. It's sort of basic human psychology. Karyn pretty courageously offered up some really grim personal stories and explained their effect on her. Those effects on her do not make her irrational and they do not make her fears worthy of dismissing. The subjectiveness of fear and discomfort are what make well-defined sexual harassment policies so important. The policies define what is acceptable behavior and what is not, rather than individual people's subjective fears or desires. And everyone who feels discomfort must be made welcome to report their experiences even if the incident turns out not to be in violation of the policies. And yes, I put my keys in my hand if I'm ever somewhere completely alone (no one else around) late at night and suddenly there's a black person behind me. Like shutting the windows if you see a dark cloud (which may or may not be a storm). Understand, I do not do this if I am walking down the street where normal activity is happening and there just happens to be black people there too, or get out a knife every time I see a black person. It's a very specific situation that almost never actually happens. And I do this because this is what I was trained to do by the self-defense instructors in model mugging. This is a really common self-defense strategy and it's pretty useless if you wait to see if you will be attacked before you start to fumble around for your keys. Again, just because I state a circumstance exists where I might be more frightened than normal, doesn't mean I'm walking around like this all the time, casting askew glances at everything with a black skin I see. I'm describing a rare situation and in fact, a lot of the time it doesn't even get to the point where I would be scared, because most black people seem to know to do something to make themselves not seem threatening. For example, the other night I took my dog out and a black person was walking up the street at the same time. He called out a friendly "hello there ma'am, sure ain' no thing" so he didn't startle me and I said "hi" back and all was well. Or sometimes a black person who is walking behind me will move to the other side of the street. But here's the whole thing. I don't give a shit whether any of you think this is rational or not. It's not relevant to anything. Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to white people how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result. But as long as you turn statements like "I take extra precautions in this very specific situation that has happened maybe a few times in my whole life" to "she grabs a weapon in anticipation of a possible violent encounter because someone happens to be black" then the discourse is never going to go anywhere productive.

So lets me very clear on this topic. You're a bigot, plain and simple. You're defending your reasons for being a bigot. There is not going to be a dialogue that is routed in reason until you give up your bigotry and see men as actual people and not some stereo-type. Reading your posts is like reading something written in the 50s to explain why the segregation is a good idea. How good ole' black folk should go out of their way to make your fears as a white person go away. And the people defending you might as well be defending separate diners, elevators and drinking fountains.


I don't care how afraid you are, or how many times you insist I should care about your irrational fears. Using statistics absent any context is contrived and just another piece of rhetoric other hate groups and bigots use when demonizing the demographic they hate. The only reason I keep responding is in the hope you will one day realize just how awful your position is and change your mind.


I do not think anything you say has substance. I do not think you are rational. I find your statements abhorrent, and I guess I am supposed to say, "I hate what you're saying but think you're niffty", but I don't. I find it hard to like people who spread hatred and their bigoted worldviews to others. Just because it seems socially acceptable to malign half of the world's population and spread fear doesn't mean it is morally acceptable. You're a victim, but that doesn't excuse your continued victimization of others.


I realize I am in the minority and what I have said will be seen as hateful. But that's ok.

[Soldier of FORTRAN]

General point: Good reasoning underlies good moral judgement.

The reasoning is always important.

[Ajzzz]

Or sometimes a man who is walking behind me will move to the other side of the street.

I wonder why.

Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to women how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result.

Don't pull that shit, I already stated this is not my objection, feel how you want, if it makes you happy how can it be wrong? I doubt that it does, or makes you safe, but keep on truckin'. You're not every woman, I can't stand it when you people pull that shit, acting as if this is what a normal woman would think, I don't personally know any woman who thinks:

If I am walking down a street alone somewhere and a man is walking behind me, he is threatening to me.

I just don't want your paranoia to be accepted as a reasoned view of the world, with your cost-benefit analyses even though I doubt you have a clue about that, with your 1 in 6 probability that's not really helpful at all. I just hope more women don't fall victim to this. Do what you want to do, grab for your keys, as long you don't maim an innocent I don't give a shit apart from maybe your health because living in fear is no way to live. Don't project your paranoia onto other people, or policy, your feelings shouldn't even be coming up in discussions about reality.

[Tatyana]

I wonder if some of this is a function of American culture as there is a hypothesis that fear has been a significant part of the media landscape.

I don't get the feeling scared all the time and viewing every single man as a threat, although I can relate as I have viewed some men as threats (and some women to be honest), and I have had the crap kicked out of me by both men and women.

I don't live in  fear, it doesn't fit with my feminist/humanist perspective.

I can sympathise with those that do, it must be terrible. I would also encourage anyone that feels this way to seek out any sort of program, therapy, exercise or even immigrate that would help them move beyond this.

I have known of several immigrants and refugees who have been able to overcome either being in civil wars and very brutal situations, so if it is possible for them to live without fear, then it is possible that others may be able to overcome their fear.

[Hanes]

MeShirt
This was a much more angry webpage when I wrote it originally. People that I respect had been hurt, and that made me furious. I got some much needed sleep and realized that, while this issue is very important to me, being an angry melodramatic jerk wasn't going to help anyone. In fact, it quite possibly could have made things worse.

I would very much like to see the JREF take a strong stance against sexism and sexual harassment . I would like to see an anti-harassment policy that is linked on every page. I would like to see truthful statistics about the frequency of harassment incidents at JREF sponsored events. I understand that this is an incredibly uncomfortable thing to do. Honestly, when I created the anti-harassment policy for SkeptiCamp Ohio I never would have thought what happened would happen. Dealing with it was incredibly uncomfortable, but I did what I had to do. Because it was the right thing to do.

This issue is important. Everybody deserves respect. Everywhere. End of story. As Surly Amy so eloquently pointed out - this isn't a problem with TAM, this is a problem with our society.

To that end, this is my small little protest. My ways of saying "this needs to be addressed". This is not a call for people to be jerks. Please - be respectful of the fact that the attendees are spending a lot of money to attend. This is a call for the people who know that this is an important issue to express that publicly. I will wear my 18% shirt as a statement of support for equality. If you want to join me, I will donate $10 for every shirt purchased (up to $500 + whatever profit I get from the shirt) to the Surly Woman Grants for TAM .

The shirt is 50% 40% 18%

Where is this quote from?

[GodSlayer]

Part of the point here is that when it comes to strangers you don't know if the fear is "irrational" or not.   Until you feel that you can safely put that stranger on the 'ok' list (from further contact or observance of behaviour, etc), then you can't say whether or not being afraid of them is "irrational".

Being vigilant, observant and 'wary' doesn't necessarily = 'irrational'.

which is why I remarked elsewhere with the contrast between TAM, which she doesn't feel safe attending, and pubs where skeptics get drunk without any fancy sign-up or hotel security, of which I was under the impression she has felt safe participating in. has she sworn off these groups recently, as well? or is there an irrational contradiction here?

[GodSlayer]

Surly Amy...confuses the reality of living in ANY city with issues of feminism.  You live in any big city, you're going to get yelled at by strangers and if you live there long enough, you'll see a weirdo spanking it.....that's not the patriarchy.  That's every big city worldwide with crazy people in it.

wait a minute... are you saying that when drunks are rude to me and other men, it's not because they wrongly think we're women?

I mean...I have long hair...so, as a feminist, I've always just figured they were just confused misogynists, since I, being a man, did not deserve the abuse they thought was being directed towards a woman, and which they surely would have apologized for had they realized their error.

[GodSlayer]

But here's the whole thing. I don't give a shit whether any of you think this is rational or not. It's not relevant to anything. Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to women how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result. But as long as you turn statements like "I take extra precautions in this very specific situation that has happened maybe a few times in my whole life" to "she grabs a weapon in anticipation of a possible violent encounter because someone happens to be male" then the discourse is never going to go anywhere productive.

So stop pretending you're a rational actor and that your actions or perceptions are in anyway anchored to reality.

I'm not sure how the discourse could be productive if there's little prospect of anyone having more situation-appropriate feelings.

...if a claustrophobe declares 'you'll go blue in the face trying to convince me elevators are safe' one wonders why they'd even bother participating in the discourse.

seems pretty damn insulting to make this about "women", rather than her own struggles with maturity, as though to be a woman is somehow to be mentally ill, or challenged, and unable to take a rational approach to evaluating things about which emotions can be triggered.

ETA:

...I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result.

...You're not every woman, I can't stand it when you people pull that shit, acting as if this is what a normal woman would think...

this^

[Eternally Learning]

I recently became aware that it's a common occurance that black kids get a talk from their parents about racism and being prepared for white people not treating them fairly because of nothing more than their skin color.  I see getting extra cautious when a man walks behind you with no one else around at night as being in a similar vein. There's completely irrational and then there's being prepared for something that, like it or not, happens to women evrey day, if not every minute.  It sucks that my demographic contains a higher statistical probability of sexual assault on the opposite gender, but if we can't accept the realities and value of statistical significances here, then where can we?

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

I really don't like doing this, because it rarely works out. But I wish you would take a moment and actually let it sink in, what you're saying and what your point is:

Let's skip the writing and just do a bunch of cookies and hugs. I can't believe it's so hard to understand that different people have different experiences in life and those different experiences might make them have different fears or sensitivities. It's sort of basic human psychology. Karyn pretty courageously offered up some really grim personal stories and explained their effect on her. Those effects on her do not make her irrational and they do not make her fears worthy of dismissing. The subjectiveness of fear and discomfort are what make well-defined sexual harassment policies so important. The policies define what is acceptable behavior and what is not, rather than individual people's subjective fears or desires. And everyone who feels discomfort must be made welcome to report their experiences even if the incident turns out not to be in violation of the policies. And yes, I put my keys in my hand if I'm ever somewhere completely alone (no one else around) late at night and suddenly there's a black person behind me. Like shutting the windows if you see a dark cloud (which may or may not be a storm). Understand, I do not do this if I am walking down the street where normal activity is happening and there just happens to be black people there too, or get out a knife every time I see a black person. It's a very specific situation that almost never actually happens. And I do this because this is what I was trained to do by the self-defense instructors in model mugging. This is a really common self-defense strategy and it's pretty useless if you wait to see if you will be attacked before you start to fumble around for your keys. Again, just because I state a circumstance exists where I might be more frightened than normal, doesn't mean I'm walking around like this all the time, casting askew glances at everything with a black skin I see. I'm describing a rare situation and in fact, a lot of the time it doesn't even get to the point where I would be scared, because most black people seem to know to do something to make themselves not seem threatening. For example, the other night I took my dog out and a black person was walking up the street at the same time. He called out a friendly "hello there ma'am, sure ain' no thing" so he didn't startle me and I said "hi" back and all was well. Or sometimes a black person who is walking behind me will move to the other side of the street. But here's the whole thing. I don't give a shit whether any of you think this is rational or not. It's not relevant to anything. Again, you can try until you are blue in the face to "prove" to white people how they should feel in any given circumstances or how it is appropriate for them to feel about anything being done to them but I think you will be arguing for a very long time with very little result. But as long as you turn statements like "I take extra precautions in this very specific situation that has happened maybe a few times in my whole life" to "she grabs a weapon in anticipation of a possible violent encounter because someone happens to be black" then the discourse is never going to go anywhere productive.

So lets me very clear on this topic. You're a bigot, plain and simple. You're defending your reasons for being a bigot. There is not going to be a dialogue that is routed in reason until you give up your bigotry and see men as actual people and not some stereo-type. Reading your posts is like reading something written in the 50s to explain why the segregation is a good idea. How good ole' black folk should go out of their way to make your fears as a white person go away. And the people defending you might as well be defending separate diners, elevators and drinking fountains.


I don't care how afraid you are, or how many times you insist I should care about your irrational fears. Using statistics absent any context is contrived and just another piece of rhetoric other hate groups and bigots use when demonizing the demographic they hate. The only reason I keep responding is in the hope you will one day realize just how awful your position is and change your mind.


I do not think anything you say has substance. I do not think you are rational. I find your statements abhorrent, and I guess I am supposed to say, "I hate what you're saying but think you're niffty", but I don't. I find it hard to like people who spread hatred and their bigoted worldviews to others. Just because it seems socially acceptable to malign half of the world's population and spread fear doesn't mean it is morally acceptable. You're a victim, but that doesn't excuse your continued victimization of others.


I realize I am in the minority and what I have said will be seen as hateful. But that's ok.

OMG, kikyo taking a precaution in a specific situation that was taught in self-defence class is oppressing goodthink!

You're reading things that just aren't there.