Topic: Are You Religious?

[Johnny Slick]

I guess Saint Paul isn't a real Christian then. 

And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because he said this, he did not believe in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ?

In God, yes. I'm not so sure whether he thought JC was divine or not. In any case, I'm not even sure that the divinity of Jesus Christ is a basic tenet of it, as at least a couple of early Christian sects didn't think so either.

[Neon Genesis]

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because he said this, he did not believe in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ?

It's in response to the claim that Christianity is all about belief and not actions. 

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because he said this, he did not believe in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ?

It's in response to the claim that Christianity is all about belief and not actions.

Within the New Testament itself there is a debate as to whether belief or actions are more important for Christians.  There are -- and always have been -- Christian sects that champion one or the other or both.  Ironically, Lutheranism has a reputation for being all about faith over works (especially among Lutherans), even though Martin Luther and Philip Melanchthon were both advocates of a more balance position (it's just that the church they were trying to reform was very works-oriented at the time).

I find that most educated church leaders in the day and age know the history of the evolution of belief so well they can generally find a historical precedent for whatever belief they want to preach.  The honest ones (as I hope I was when I was a preacher) try to make it clear that there is no one "correct" thing to believe, but that we must use a combination of the wisdom handed down from our ancestors (tempered by modern sensibilities), our cultural tradition, and personal experience, guided by reason to form our beliefs, and not be afraid to change them when we discover they were wrong (I would also try to throw in bits about the value of observation and critical analysis when coming to conclusions about the natural world).

[worldslaziestbusker]

I find that most educated church leaders in the day and age know the history of the evolution of belief so well they can generally find a historical precedent for whatever belief they want to preach.  The honest ones (as I hope I was when I was a preacher

Were you an honest one? 
I just brought the topic back from the mists of the past, here: http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,38868.300.html and there are many interesting questions from Godslayer in that thread that you might yet address, but this seems as good a point as any to reiterate the one about your preaching days.

Did the congregation know that you were an atheist when you were in the pulpit, and if so, how did they feel about receiving information about their alleged salvation from someone who didn't believe in that salvation?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I find that most educated church leaders in the day and age know the history of the evolution of belief so well they can generally find a historical precedent for whatever belief they want to preach.  The honest ones (as I hope I was when I was a preacher

Were you an honest one? 
I just brought the topic back from the mists of the past, here: http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,38868.300.html and there are many interesting questions from Godslayer in that thread that you might yet address, but this seems as good a point as any to reiterate the one about your preaching days.

Did the congregation know that you were an atheist when you were in the pulpit, and if so, how did they feel about receiving information about their alleged salvation from someone who didn't believe in that salvation?

Here is the response I just gave in the other thread.  Let's continue the conversation in this thread to keep things current.

Did you ever find out if the congregation you preached to knew you were an atheist at the time you were preaching to them?

I did a lot of supply preaching, that is, be a "substitute pastor" from pasotr taking holidays, so most of those churches did not necessarily know I was an atheist.

There were two churches I preached at on a regular basis, one was a rather conservative church -- for a mainstream church, it was still progressive compared to the churches that dominate the Bible Belt (for example, although it had many openly gay lay leaders, and then some grumpy old people who pretended they didn't know).  At the church, I was never "openly" atheistic in the pulpit -- though my sermons were of course completely compatible with an atheistic worldview, but those who spoke to me about my sermon outside of the service, either in private or in "bible study", knew I did not believe that God literally existed.  Some people were disturbed when they found out, but not enough to leave the church or stop asking questions.  The only real problems I had was when I taught confirmation class.  I was totally honest with the kids about the historical accuracy of scripture, and told them about all of the various theories about what the true events behind the tales might have been.  Some of them went home and told their parents, and their parents then went and complained to the other pastors.  However, by that time my internship at that church was coming to an end, so I just let of one the other pastors take over the class, as I would have even if the parents has not complained.

The other church I preached at regularly was my "home congregation", the church I attended when I went to university and continued attended after I left the ministry.  Everyone there knew I was an atheist and loved it.  I'm sure I told the story of how I revealed my atheism to my pastor before, perhaps even in this very thread: One year my pastor was trying to get me to teach the teenage Sunday School, and I said (in front of a fresh young intern from seminary), I don't think I should teach Sunday School seeing how I'm an atheist.  He enthusiastically replied, "Welcome to Atheism!  Your class starts next week!"

If so, how did they feel about being given the good news by someone who did not accept that news as true?

I do accept the good news as true.  Christ has died.  Christ is risen. Christ comes again!  Alleluia!

[Dionysus]

Just want to clarify that my points weren't related to jomike's statements.

My statements were related to the definition of the word "Christian" and its usage.

I think a person is a "real Christian" if and when they deign to refer to themselves as Christian. Their usage may be grammatically incorrect, but it's not like they're not allowed to use the word however they like. Language is fairly ambiguous at times.

[AxeGrrl]

KH is most certainly an Atheist Christian, arguing to the contrary is a temptation best avoided.  He knows the argument so well the pleasure is not in watching him do the dance, but in the various arabesques he executes on top of the basic moves performed through effortless, intellectual muscle memory.

Indeed

[AxeGrrl]

According to one guy I argued with on the amazon boards, people who believe Jesus existed but wasn't 'God' are theists.

Why?  because they 'believe in' something someone else calls 'God'.

I pointed out to him that would make him a theist when it comes to Eric Clapton.

(needless to say, he was the kind of person who also thought that discussing the merits of solipsism was a constructive use of time

[MisterMarc]

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because he said this, he did not believe in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ?

It's in response to the claim that Christianity is all about belief and not actions.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that, in Christianity, your beliefs are more important than your actions. I'm saying that when assigning a religious moniker to an individual to be used as a defining characteristic, that belief is more important. For example, I might never step foot in a mosque in my life, never say a prayer, and never celebrate a holiday, but if I believe that there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed was his prophet, then it's fair to say that I'm a Muslim. Calling someone a Muslim, who professes not to believe in god, just because he answers the call to prayer strikes me as a category error.

[Neon Genesis]

But when you have 35,000 denominations of a religion and they all claim to be the truth, to point to one half of that 35,000 and say "you're the real Christians" just because they're the most popular in the Beenited States of Amarika and then say the other 10,000 aren't "real" Christians seems rather silly and pointless to me.

[MisterMarc]

But when you have 35,000 denominations of a religion and they all claim to be the truth, to point to one half of that 35,000 and say "you're the real Christians" just because they're the most popular in the Beenited States of Amarika and then say the other 10,000 aren't "real" Christians seems rather silly and pointless to me.

Minor differences notwithstanding, there actually is one overarching theme in Christian religions. And I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure it's following Christ. If one denomination of self-proclaimed Christians believes that Jesus was nothing but a minor prophet, and there is no God but Allah and the words of Mohammed are of supreme importance, would you say it's fair to call them Christians? This makes no sense to me. That's like a refrigerator asking to be called a hand blender, and everyone saying..."yeah, okay. It's a hand blender."

Belief matters because it's at the heart of the definitions of those religions. You can claim a Christian is anyone who wears pants, but that doesn't make it true.

[Neon Genesis]

Would it be fair to say you're just making crap up and don't know what you're talking about?

[Shibboleth]

Long ago the Christians made a laundry list of things that defined them as Christians. You can call yourself whatever you want but among Christian the general consensus is that a Christian is defined by the Nicene Creed. Once again you can call yourself whatever you want. I have never flown a jet in my life and I can call myself an airplane pilot if I want but other pilots tend to define themselves with different standards.   

[worldslaziestbusker]

Did you ever find out if the congregation you preached to knew you were an atheist at the time you were preaching to them?

I did a lot of supply preaching, that is, be a "substitute pastor" from pasotr taking holidays, so most of those churches did not necessarily know I was an atheist.

There were two churches I preached at on a regular basis, one was a rather conservative church -- for a mainstream church, it was still progressive compared to the churches that dominate the Bible Belt (for example, although it had many openly gay lay leaders, and then some grumpy old people who pretended they didn't know).  At the church, I was never "openly" atheistic in the pulpit -- though my sermons were of course completely compatible with an atheistic worldview, but those who spoke to me about my sermon outside of the service, either in private or in "bible study", knew I did not believe that God literally existed.  Some people were disturbed when they found out, but not enough to leave the church or stop asking questions.  The only real problems I had was when I taught confirmation class.  I was totally honest with the kids about the historical accuracy of scripture, and told them about all of the various theories about what the true events behind the tales might have been.  Some of them went home and told their parents, and their parents then went and complained to the other pastors.  However, by that time my internship at that church was coming to an end, so I just let of one the other pastors take over the class, as I would have even if the parents has not complained.

The other church I preached at regularly was my "home congregation", the church I attended when I went to university and continued attended after I left the ministry.  Everyone there knew I was an atheist and loved it.

Two supplementary questions.
Were you paid?
Why did you quit?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Long ago the Christians made a laundry list of things that defined them as Christians. You can call yourself whatever you want but among Christian the general consensus is that a Christian is defined by the Nicene Creed.

Since much of this conversation is at least tangentially related to my claim to be a Christian even though I am also an Atheist, I would like to point out that I do believe in the the Nicene Creed, and recite it without reservation before receiving communion when I attend a mass of service of Holy Eucharist.  One does not need to interpret the mythic language used in the creeds literally to "believe" in them.  To say otherwise is to buy into the Fundamentalist heresy.

Note that my labelling of Fundamentalism as a heresy do not preclude them also being Christians; they are just Christians with who I strongly disagree.  All Christians are heretics to some other Christians.