Topic: Episode #360

[Trinoc]

Plasma is certainly a separate state, but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior. It's an electrically charged gas.

It's a different state according to the common meaning of the word "state", but is it really a "fourth state" in the same class as solid, liquid and vapour?

[norcalclimber]

not one laugh for 'you never know 'til you open the door'? (circa minute 48)

I was surprised that didn't get any laughs too, I totally cracked up at that one!

[treelobsters]

I wonder which came first, the "ET Corn Gods" site or the Corn God from "Scenes from a Multiverse". Coincidentally, today's SFAM is about Corn God: http://amultiverse.com/2012/06/11/dear-corn-god/

[Citizen Skeptic]

As a state with the amongst the lowest funding for schools and the second highest science standards I'm at a loss for why high standards cost more money.

Thank you.

[seaotter]

Plasma is certainly a separate state, but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior. It's an electrically charged gas.

It's a different state according to the common meaning of the word "state", but is it really a "fourth state" in the same class as solid, liquid and vapour?

Yes

[secretmuslim]

As a Californian I would love it if there were a four year science requirement for high school students.  But most of California's budget goes to either education or health and human services.  You aren't going to be able to cut environmental protection (about 1% of the state budget), & make up the budget shortfall.  And the last I checked we can't save money by ending our undeclared war with Oregon.  Infrastructure either has to be cut or revenues/taxes have to be raised.  Thanks to proposition 13 the latter has become exceedingly difficult (2/3 supermajority required in both houses).  So when it comes to that four year science requirement, I'm not holding my breath.

WTN guess: Alf Landon

As a state with the amongst the lowest funding for schools and the second highest science standards I'm at a loss for why high standards cost more money.

You may want to check out the article in the podcast notes. They tried to prove it didn't cost money, only to find out that it does. My guess is that the state would have to keep more teachers & pay for more supplies like dead cats for anatomy.

In regards to your state it seems to me that low achievement may be the result of an underfunded mandate.

[seaotter]

As a Californian I would love it if there were a four year science requirement for high school students.  But most of California's budget goes to either education or health and human services.  You aren't going to be able to cut environmental protection (about 1% of the state budget), & make up the budget shortfall.  And the last I checked we can't save money by ending our undeclared war with Oregon.  Infrastructure either has to be cut or revenues/taxes have to be raised.  Thanks to proposition 13 the latter has become exceedingly difficult (2/3 supermajority required in both houses).  So when it comes to that four year science requirement, I'm not holding my breath.

WTN guess: Alf Landon

As a state with the amongst the lowest funding for schools and the second highest science standards I'm at a loss for why high standards cost more money.

You may want to check out the article in the podcast notes. They tried to prove it didn't cost money, only to find out that it does. My guess is that the state would have to keep more teachers & pay for more supplies like dead cats for anatomy.

In regards to your state it seems to me that low achievement may be the result of an underfunded mandate.

And achievement in my state does nicely correlate to funding. Of course funding better correlates to the income level of the mothers.

And btw achievement did improve with higher standards.

[Trinoc]

Plasma is certainly a separate state, but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior. It's an electrically charged gas.

It's a different state according to the common meaning of the word "state", but is it really a "fourth state" in the same class as solid, liquid and vapour?

Yes

OK, please compare and contrast the features of the transitions between solid, liquid and gas with the transition between gas and plasma. Is there a sharp transition so that gas and plasma can coexist only at a particular temperature (for a given pressure)? Is it well defined whether a particular bunch of atoms is "gas" or "plasma", or are there degrees of ionisation so that some plasmas (of the same element(s)) are more ionised than others? Is there latent heat involved in the transition from gas to plasma (i.e. input of energy without a corresponding increase in temperature)?

[seaotter]

Plasma is certainly a separate state, but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior. It's an electrically charged gas.

It's a different state according to the common meaning of the word "state", but is it really a "fourth state" in the same class as solid, liquid and vapour?

Yes

OK, please compare and contrast the features of the transitions between solid, liquid and gas with the transition between gas and plasma. Is there a sharp transition so that gas and plasma can coexist only at a particular temperature (for a given pressure)? Is it well defined whether a particular bunch of atoms is "gas" or "plasma", or are there degrees of ionisation so that some plasmas (of the same element(s)) are more ionised than others? Is there latent heat involved in the transition from gas to plasma (i.e. input of energy without a corresponding increase in temperature)?

but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior

[secretmuslim]

As a Californian I would love it if there were a four year science requirement for high school students.  But most of California's budget goes to either education or health and human services.  You aren't going to be able to cut environmental protection (about 1% of the state budget), & make up the budget shortfall.  And the last I checked we can't save money by ending our undeclared war with Oregon.  Infrastructure either has to be cut or revenues/taxes have to be raised.  Thanks to proposition 13 the latter has become exceedingly difficult (2/3 supermajority required in both houses).  So when it comes to that four year science requirement, I'm not holding my breath.

WTN guess: Alf Landon

As a state with the amongst the lowest funding for schools and the second highest science standards I'm at a loss for why high standards cost more money.

You may want to check out the article in the podcast notes. They tried to prove it didn't cost money, only to find out that it does. My guess is that the state would have to keep more teachers & pay for more supplies like dead cats for anatomy.

In regards to your state it seems to me that low achievement may be the result of an underfunded mandate.

And achievement in my state does nicely correlate to funding. Of course funding better correlates to the income level of the mothers.

And btw achievement did improve with higher standards.

My point was that the mandate does require money.  California can cut education or cut healthcare to the poor; somebody has to pay. Austerity hurts.

Putting more money into the pot will result in a better educated populace. Or we can hope the austerity fairy solves all our troubles.

[seaotter]

To do it right takes money but hell you have the teachers. Just teach more science. We went from two to four sciences about ten years ago with no significant cost.

[Thorloar]

It saddens me that we have become a nation that will not invest in our own interests. We need to raise taxes to pay for programs that we deem necessary or beneficial. You get what you pay for!

It may be true that some fat can be cut from our budgets, and that is something worth looking into, but we must prioritize the programs that are beneficial and those that are not, we must prioritize those that are effective and those that are not. If this does not balance the sheets, than we must increase revenue to pay for those programs we have deemed beneficial and effective. This is not rocket science, but it does require political will, and more importantly personal will. Will YOU pay more for those programs?

I think a large majority of the voting populous believes that they should not have to pay for programs that they do not believe benefit themselves. They must be introduced to the fact that these beneficial and effective programs will benefit them. This is no small task given the irrational way in which the public mind operates. They best way to accomplish this is through a strong and robust education system..........................WE ARE F*CKED!!!!!!!!         

[Trinoc]

Plasma is certainly a separate state, but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior. It's an electrically charged gas.

It's a different state according to the common meaning of the word "state", but is it really a "fourth state" in the same class as solid, liquid and vapour?

Yes

OK, please compare and contrast the features of the transitions between solid, liquid and gas with the transition between gas and plasma. Is there a sharp transition so that gas and plasma can coexist only at a particular temperature (for a given pressure)? Is it well defined whether a particular bunch of atoms is "gas" or "plasma", or are there degrees of ionisation so that some plasmas (of the same element(s)) are more ionised than others? Is there latent heat involved in the transition from gas to plasma (i.e. input of energy without a corresponding increase in temperature)?

but it's the charge characteristics more than its physical behavior

I'm not disputing that it's a "state", only that it does not qualify as "the fourth state of matter" because it is not in the same category as the solid, liquid and gas states. Supercritical fluid, on the other hand, probably does qualify.

[Silly Llama]

To do it right takes money but hell you have the teachers. Just teach more science. We went from two to four sciences about ten years ago with no significant cost.

     I just finished an alternate licensing program to become an elementary school teacher, in part because I wanted to be on the front lines of education in America.  I was very pleased to find that all my professors taught us to do cross-curriculum work.  If you are going to teaching students to read and understand non-fiction as your mandatory 90 minutes of English Language Arts you can double up on that time by making the non-fiction reading from the science standards.  You don't have to limit science to the 20 minute window every other day that is actually reserved for science.  Politicians can say what they want, but teachers really decide what is taught in the classrooms.
     I discovered that many of the teachers, especially those under 40 years old, teaching today are doing this.  I know the subject of the show was high school science, which is a whole different situation, but I think that there might be ways in high school to maximize the time as well.  The earlier poster who said that what is lacking is the will is probably right.  When people really want the science, they will make sure they get it.

[seaotter]

Dude people who want it. Get out of their way. They will learn in spite of us. It's those in the middle and those at the bottom that will never know how much they would have loved science. The best thing that ever happened to Alabama science was requiring four years. We had to get creative. There have always been sciences for those going to college but we added zoology earth and space science marine biology and environmental science. It's amazing how interested your lower lever kids can get when you stop talking about the periodic table and start talking about interesting subjects.