Topic: Episode #360

[Silly Llama]

Exactly, and that's why I make sure to introduce a variety of science topics in my fifth grade class.  I also teach about the nature of science and logic as much as possible.  My thinking is that if I can show them how amazing science is, the minimum will be a meaningless number to them.

[Fast Eddie B]

We need to raise taxes to pay for programs that we deem necessary or beneficial. You get what you pay for!

I think you mean that you feel we should raise tax rates and that that would lead to increased tax revenues to help solve the problem.

Might help, but such is not always the case. If tax rates get too high, revenue may actually fall as people find ways to avoid taxation, up to and including moving to another district or state. Businesses have fled California and NY to avoid onerous tax rates, which shrinks the tax base and may exacerbate the problem rather than help it.

Of course I'm against cutting science education. I'm also appalled that cities are attempting to stiff employees out of their contractual pensions. But states can't print money, and some very hard choices will have to be made. What happens in California may be a bellwether for the rest of the nation.

[Beep Boop Boop]

The conventional three states have definite state-like characteristics. They are distinct, and there is a transition between them at a particular temperature and pressure where any energy put in or taken out goes into the state change rather than increasing or decreasing the temperature (i.e. latent heat at the freezing or boiling points).

This is actually babies first physics lesson level of science.  Using your definition which is actually a pretty good one there are about 20 different states of matter just going off of solid, liquid, and gas.

[Trinoc]

The conventional three states have definite state-like characteristics. They are distinct, and there is a transition between them at a particular temperature and pressure where any energy put in or taken out goes into the state change rather than increasing or decreasing the temperature (i.e. latent heat at the freezing or boiling points).

This is actually babies first physics lesson level of science.

I love the way BBB can take a simple, polite scientific debate and reduce it to the level of insult!

In case anyone thinks I'm a bit over the top here, this was the original post:

This mindset is apparently the reason why the myth about glass being a liquid gets bandied about so much.  Using this moronic definition there are hundreds and hundreds of solids.

Perhaps BBB would care to enlighten us with his scientifically rigorous definition of what constitutes a state of matter.

[Beep Boop Boop]

Perhaps BBB would care to enlighten us with his scientifically rigorous definition of what constitutes a state of matter.

Surprisingly you got the definition right.  You aren't using it correctly but you got the definition right.

[Trinoc]

Perhaps BBB would care to enlighten us with his scientifically rigorous definition of what constitutes a state of matter.

Surprisingly you got the definition right.  You aren't using it correctly but you got the definition right.

"Surprisingly"? Why, thank you for your kind regard for my intellect!

Please enlighten me further by telling me in what way I was using it incorrectly, and what the correct usage would be.

[Beep Boop Boop]

Perhaps BBB would care to enlighten us with his scientifically rigorous definition of what constitutes a state of matter.

Surprisingly you got the definition right.  You aren't using it correctly but you got the definition right.

"Surprisingly"? Why, thank you for your kind regard for my intellect!

Please enlighten me further by telling me in what way I was using it incorrectly, and what the correct usage would be.

You somehow defined classical states of matter which are the solid liquid and gas.  They are defined by the ability to change into one another quite readily.  Technically speaking they aren't always three distinct states because you can end up with something like water which has 20 different phases.  Then you defined the nonclassical states of which there are dozens and dozens of them like plasma and ironically glass.  Then you threw out the later category even though they are completely valid.  That is why I actually said surprisingly.    In the grand scheme of things the reason why plasma is probably lumped into the classical phases is because its the most common form of matter in the universe. 

[Citizen Skeptic]

We need to raise taxes to pay for programs that we deem necessary or beneficial. You get what you pay for!

I think you mean that you feel we should raise tax rates and that that would lead to increased tax revenues to help solve the problem.

Might help, but such is not always the case. If tax rates get too high, revenue may actually fall as people find ways to avoid taxation, up to and including moving to another district or state. Businesses have fled California and NY to avoid onerous tax rates, which shrinks the tax base and may exacerbate the problem rather than help it.

Of course I'm against cutting science education. I'm also appalled that cities are attempting to stiff employees out of their contractual pensions. But states can't print money, and some very hard choices will have to be made. What happens in California may be a bellwether for the rest of the nation.

I've lived in Cali since 1965 and I'm looking forward to leaving shortly. Taxes here are close to highest in the country. Combine it with inflated property prices, high utility costs, and shitty services, and there's not much of an incentive to stay. We're also still in 10%+ unemployment and have a state budget that is woefully out of whack ($10B or so?). And it's pretty unlikely that any of it is going to get better in the short-run.

[Beep Boop Boop]

Just out of curiosity.  Did any of the rogues actually read the Nature article? That article makes it sound like it really shouldn't have been at all surprising. 

[secretmuslim]

I've lived in Cali since 1965 and I'm looking forward to leaving shortly. Taxes here are close to highest in the country. Combine it with inflated property prices, high utility costs, and shitty services, and there's not much of an incentive to stay. We're also still in 10%+ unemployment and have a state budget that is woefully out of whack ($10B or so?). And it's pretty unlikely that any of it is going to get better in the short-run.
[/quote]

When I was in college I would frequently say "that's it I'm moving to Canada".  Nobody ever took me seriously, because they knew I was full of it. I love America & California, I'd never leave just because Bush made a political decision I disagreed with. I hate to point out the obvious, but I must admit that it seems you are being hyperbolic to prove a political point.

You've lived here since the 60s and are only now finding taxes too high to bear? After Reagan got rid of free public college education? After prop 13?

Utility prices are low where I live, though I admit not to know where you live or how long it takes you to vacuum.

I don't know what state services you are having trouble with; I haven't had a problem since the DMV went online.

And I've never heard of anyone moving because of a state budget shortfall. But, if you really are moving out of state & think your property is overvalued, give me a good deal & I'll help facilitate your "escape" to Vegas. Good luck.

[arthwollipot]

George Simpson (of ET Corn Gods) also attempted to sue James Randi and certain JREF Forum members a few years back. He was spectactularly unsuccessful. He's recently made another filing against Randi, which I expect will be equally unsuccessful.

Also, I think SoF played pretty fast and loose with the definition of "drug" this week. Apparently a "drug" is any molecule of a certain size or smaller. Does that mean that molecular hydrogen ( H - H ) is a drug? If so, it's no wonder they got such a big number.

[Citizen Skeptic]

I've lived in Cali since 1965 and I'm looking forward to leaving shortly. Taxes here are close to highest in the country. Combine it with inflated property prices, high utility costs, and shitty services, and there's not much of an incentive to stay. We're also still in 10%+ unemployment and have a state budget that is woefully out of whack ($10B or so?). And it's pretty unlikely that any of it is going to get better in the short-run.

When I was in college I would frequently say "that's it I'm moving to Canada".  Nobody ever took me seriously, because they knew I was full of it. I love America & California, I'd never leave just because Bush made a political decision I disagreed with. I hate to point out the obvious, but I must admit that it seems you are being hyperbolic to prove a political point.

You've lived here since the 60s and are only now finding taxes too high to bear? After Reagan got rid of free public college education? After prop 13?

Utility prices are low where I live, though I admit not to know where you live or how long it takes you to vacuum.

I don't know what state services you are having trouble with; I haven't had a problem since the DMV went online.

And I've never heard of anyone moving because of a state budget shortfall. But, if you really are moving out of state & think your property is overvalued, give me a good deal & I'll help facilitate your "escape" to Vegas. Good luck.
[/quote]

I'm escaping to WA. I didn't pay taxes in the 60's.

State services - crappy schools, crappy roads, too many prisons, etc. Been to LA lately? It's a frickin war zone.

But yes, WA state will save me 100% in state income tax, 50% on utilities, and 80% on property taxes. At the same time, I'm going to be able to improve my quality of life. Why should I stay here?

California property, mine included, is overvalued for what you get. If you just go across the bay from where I am, it is even more overvalued. If I wanted to give someone a deal, I have plenty of friends who would happily take my house. I'm looking for a Facebook millionaire to rake over the coals though.

[Trinoc]

You somehow defined classical states of matter which are the solid liquid and gas.  They are defined by the ability to change into one another quite readily.  Technically speaking they aren't always three distinct states because you can end up with something like water which has 20 different phases.  Then you defined the nonclassical states of which there are dozens and dozens of them like plasma and ironically glass.  Then you threw out the later category even though they are completely valid.  That is why I actually said surprisingly.    In the grand scheme of things the reason why plasma is probably lumped into the classical phases is because its the most common form of matter in the universe.

I didn't throw out the non-classical states. I simply said that one of them at least, plasma, could not properly be called "the fourth state of matter" by analogy with the classical states: solid, liquid and vapour.

Things like the various different kinds of ice, which I presume is what you mean by the 20 different phases of water, may well qualify as extra classical states of matter, provided that they have transitions at specific temperatures and pressures, and that any energy input or output during such a transition occurs without a change of temperature.

[Daws]

We need to raise taxes to pay for programs that we deem necessary or beneficial. You get what you pay for!

I think you mean that you feel we should raise tax rates and that that would lead to increased tax revenues to help solve the problem.

Might help, but such is not always the case. If tax rates get too high, revenue may actually fall as people find ways to avoid taxation, up to and including moving to another district or state. Businesses have fled California and NY to avoid onerous tax rates, which shrinks the tax base and may exacerbate the problem rather than help it.

Of course I'm against cutting science education. I'm also appalled that cities are attempting to stiff employees out of their contractual pensions. But states can't print money, and some very hard choices will have to be made. What happens in California may be a bellwether for the rest of the nation.

I've lived in Cali since 1965 and I'm looking forward to leaving shortly. Taxes here are close to highest in the country. Combine it with inflated property prices, high utility costs, and shitty services, and there's not much of an incentive to stay. We're also still in 10%+ unemployment and have a state budget that is woefully out of whack ($10B or so?). And it's pretty unlikely that any of it is going to get better in the short-run.

Yeah but let's keep perspective here, none of that immediately says to us "Damn! We need to cut high school science education!" >.<

[av8rmike]

The transcription is going up slowly. I just did the Skeptical poetry segment and had no idea how to spell the names of the submitters. I apologize if I butchered your name, but it's easy enough to correct.