Author Topic: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head  (Read 1875 times)

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Offline Hanes

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #15 on: Jun 12, 2012, 06:58:40 PM »
Please don't make me go to a nightclub, Beleth.  I don't like all the lights and noise.


Besides, there's a clearly documented procedure for when your pub gets invaded by combative jerks.  I believe first you offer them a drink and a seat at the bar.  After that I forget the details but I think it contains the phrase, "make like a tree and get the fuck out." 

To stretch your metaphore past its breaking point, Joan Rivers may have given us some bad press, but the only people who both paid attention and cared are the types of people that pay attention to and care what Joan Rivers says.  And now we're concerned what these groupies of Joan fucking Rivers thinks?



1)  These few people aren't criticizing this forum.  They're criticizing their perception of it, which is clearly skewed by the... hrm, what word can I use that means "drama" but won't offend people...

Which brings me to
2)  If we were to respond to their every whim
a) it wouldn't make them happy--people always find something to bitch about if they're looking to bitch and
b) it would turn this place into their place.  Which already exists.  So that portion of the skeptical community is already being served.  But then what would be left to serve the portion of the skeptical community that is currently enjoying this environment?

3)  It isn't like this place doesn't attract new members.  Yes clearly we have a few dozen people who post very regularly, but
a) there are many, many people who lurk here, and
b) I see new faces all the time.  Some are just lurkers that are popping their heads up with some wonderful question or insite and others keep posting.



Even if they honestly don't like our community, that's not a bad thing.  I don't like their community.  I don't want them to change it, I'm not writing blogs about how they're milktoast and boring--an echo chamber for idiots, if you will--and I'm not offended that they exist.  They like it and I'm glad they're happy.  I hope that it helps them be more skeptical in their daily life.  I know this forum does that for me.

Skepticism attracts many, many people, and we don't all have to fit under the same tent.  I do wish that one other tent would refrain from throwing their feces on our tent, but whatcha gonna do?  I vote we wait it out, and in a week they'll find something else to lob their poo at.

Offline WC

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #16 on: Jun 12, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
Eh, this is all like high school. Everyone and their clique. Cliques vs cliques. I hate tribal stuff, circling the wagons, in-group/out-group. People are talking yelling past each other and browbeating. This is where hypocrisy, bigotry, and sectarianism raise their ugly heads. Cooler, wiser, heads are getting shouted down.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'both sides do it', or that a controversy hasn't been manufactured or ginned up in some (not necessarily deliberate) way (with the exception of maybe two people I've noticed that really really REALLY hate the forums and the mods, and aren't missing an opportunity to take potshots or fan the flames).

Where's Zytheran and our other social scientists? They's got some 'splainin to do.

It's pretty toxic and nasty out right now. SGUF is currently being used as a strawman by folks who are blind to the irony of what they are doing, which is a pity because I think there have been some valid criticisms leveled at us, but those points of validity are being drowned out by a mob caught up in a frenzy.

When there's a reactionary shit storm going on that can't be bothered with reason or compelled by facts, I do what I always do; put in earbuds, take a klonipin, and focus on something either productive or calming, because otherwise I have panic attacks or rage fits. Life is too short for such unfortunate petulance, but it is so hard to look away... Harder not to jump in. Earbuds... Klonipin... Cycle... (hey, that's how I got through high school)

What else can you do?

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« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2012, 10:17:03 PM by WC »

Offline lousycanuck

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #17 on: Jun 13, 2012, 11:06:54 AM »
Just had beleth help me activate this account despite email black-hole issues (I signed up for a year ago to try to answer a Who's That Noisy but couldn't get working and didn't bother following up). It mostly became necessary that I needed to do something about this to correct a few misapprehensions in this thread.

First, the post at Stephanie Zvan's that mentions this forum specifically, actually says that you're using the word drama in the same sense as the Urban Dictionary definition she gave. It's this language she took issue with, as well as mentioning a reputation that the forum's earned as a place that does not do enough to punish misogynist bigotry when it's seen. beleth asked there for advice on how to better challenge that bigotry, and though some of our commenters rankled at being asked to fix someone else's problems, some advice (good advice overall, I think) was given.

Second, I have to laugh that the example proffered of Stephanie's terrible man-hating ways involves her defending me, a man, for the use of the terms "douchebag" and "vaginas' owners" (with context -- poetically, in other words, not dismissively). This is important. And rather ironic.

And third and finally, I doubt that I, or others in my community, think everyone in your community are raging misogynists, dumb, dramatic, et cetera. Forums are generally difficult for me to have decent conversations in, and I think people who prefer blogs often dislike forums and vice-versa, but I don't think there's anything inherent to the media that causes this sort of rift. I especially don't think a community full of skeptics should have any problems critically examining some otherwise unexamined beliefs about women, about society, and about the intersectionality of certain human rights and social justice causes with our particular fight.

And I'm not above calling people "douchebags" when they don't even try, or dismiss that intersectionality out of hand. So calling me milquetoast is probably off-base considering the very link that was offered in this thread as proof why our community is so far inferior in tone and scope to yours.

That's my piece. I'll go back to lurking, even though my account is activated now.

Offline snakeman

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #18 on: Jun 13, 2012, 01:39:44 PM »
First, as a not very regular contributor, but a frequent reader here, let me ask you to please don't go back to just lurking.  This community is more interesting the more people are here and that's particularly true when there's differences of opinion.

That said:

First, the post at Stephanie Zvan's that mentions this forum specifically, actually says that you're using the word drama in the same sense as the Urban Dictionary definition she gave. It's this language she took issue with,

Yes, that was a central argument of her blog post.  However, I think there's a couple of major flaws in her reasoning in making that argument that are not just subtle nuances but missing reality on the scale of quacks proposing perpetual motion machines.  That being, that Urban Dictionary is not a reliable, authoritative, or respected source of a definition of anything much beyond the rough translation of modern youth slang.  Secondly, cherry picking one definition of a word from a dubious source out of all the many others available out there that might, arguably, contain a more accurate definition of how the word was intended by those who used it is the kind of poor debate tactic that she or anyone else would likely ridicule were it a situation of an anti-vax advocate picking a "research study" off of Natural News.   Having thus seen a person build a house of cards out of such poor material to justify outrage over a single word (when there were other and clearer examples she could have chosen to make use of) could lead people (myself included) to wonder if there's any merit or constructive discussion present at all.

In short, though I didn't use the term "drama", if I had I would take absolute offense at someone arguing my intent was sexist when many other common and accepted dictionaries present a non-gendered definition/interpretation of the word as much more likely.  It makes it look like a week argument in search of something to be outraged about.   Worse yet, I believe there was a quote in the actual thread that used the phrase "drama whore" and I'd say that "whore" is the much more gender-based and offensive word in that phrase.

Quote
as well as mentioning a reputation that the forum's earned as a place that does not do enough to punish misogynist bigotry when it's seen.

Again, I have to question the foundation of this statement as well.  If the basis for "doesn't do enough to punish misogynist bigotry" is that there wasn't an insta-ban of every person using the word "drama" then I'd say the person leveling the claim has a bit too much of a hair trigger when it comes to setting or enforcing a standard or too high an expectation of the moderators' ability to be everywhere at once.   More importantly, as someone who values this forum and wishes to contribute to its continual improvement and growth, I'm disappointed that thus far the people I've seen putting themselves out in front as advocates on this issue (and yes, I've followed a lot of links to a lot of blogs I've not visited before recently because of threads here) have been doing an awful lot of leveling of criticism about "do more to punish misogyny" or "make it more inviting to women" on this forum but have not been very clear about specifics of what they would like to see changed and how.  It gives me the impression that they're happier standing back and throwing stones than actually attempting the hard task of suggesting changes to codified rules and procedures.  Simply calling for "make things better" or "change at the top" doesn't do much.  Whoever owns this forum could throw out all the moderators tomorrow and replace them with a bunch of other members, but that wouldn't do anything to address any problems the critics have spotted unless those critics are the ones appointed as moderators.

To use a crappy analogy, right now it appears to me as if Beleth had painted a house green and Stephanie and others have come along and said "we don't like the color you painted the house" but when asked what color it should be have only responded with "not green".  Frustrating for all involved, no?


Quote
I especially don't think a community full of skeptics should have any problems critically examining some otherwise unexamined beliefs about women, about society, and about the intersectionality of certain human rights and social justice causes with our particular fight.

Here I agree with you.  However, as we tend to ask the folks who come to the skeptics community ranting about anti-vax or intelligent design or similar:  what would it take to change your mind?   Specifically, can Stephanie and others who share her opinion of these forums answer the question "What evidence would it take for you to be convinced that you drew a wrong conclusion about the existence/level/tolerance of misogyny on these forums and that no significant problem exists?"  On the flip side, there have been some very vocal posters on here decrying the over-reaction (or outright jumping at shadows that are not there) on the part of Stephanie and others who should also be able to calmly answer the question "What evidence would it take for you to be convinced that there is misogyny or other gender issues present within the community of this forum that needs to be addressed by rule/policy changes to make it as egalitarian and inviting as you originally thought it was and it should be?"

Unfortunately, just like politics, I'm concerned that the thoughtful and rational folks in the middle will get drowned out by the ranting of the folks on either extreme of the spectrum of this one.  I hope I'm wrong though.

Offline stonesean

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #19 on: Jun 13, 2012, 01:58:11 PM »
Quote

Wow.  That comment thread makes me never want to visit FTB ever again.

There are some real maniacs out there....
Well.  There it is.

Offline Dileas

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #20 on: Jun 16, 2012, 12:42:14 PM »
Being insulted by irrational fools is hardly a noteworthy event.

This stems from the same issue as all the elevatorgate drama.  On the one side you have sexists and misogynists who'll take any opportunity to attack women.  On the other side you've got radical feminist bigots who insist that it's misogynistic to express anything short of immediate blind fawning acceptance of any claim made by a woman.  And somewhere in the middle you have people attempting to gather evidence/data and use it to form a rational opinion.  You know, trying to use skepticism.

Far as I'm concerned, both of the extremes are equally despicable.  I'll "tolerate" both of them, because that's the best way to get a better understanding of their beliefs and motivations, and the only way to engage them in debate.

The linked article is particularly absurd when you realize that it's written by a member belonging to one extreme, attacking the middle-ground for tolerating a different extreme.  Rather like a fanatical christian attacking atheists for being tolerant of islam.

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #21 on: Jun 16, 2012, 12:43:58 PM »
I don't think either caricature is an accurate characterization of its side and I don't think either caricature is terribly useful for the debate either.
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Offline Dileas

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #22 on: Jun 16, 2012, 12:56:02 PM »
*shrug*  Obviously I'm talking about the extremes - that's why I used the word "extremes".  Most people don't fall right at the edge.  Some do.  Treat each individual on their own merit.

Femitheist

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #23 on: Jun 17, 2012, 05:59:37 AM »
I imagine this will sound strange coming from me, but...

The forum seems to have a decent amount of members. People can draw in their friends. I think, perhaps, it might be a poor idea to lock threads unless someone is blatantly trolling or name-calling, because that sort of reflects poorly on a "Skepticism" forum. That's just my opinion.

If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Edit: I didn't read any of the other posts here, so I apologize if I mirrored anything someone else said, and I only read the post by (Brandon?).
« Last Edit: Jun 17, 2012, 06:06:47 AM by Femitheist »

Online Beleth

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #24 on: Jun 17, 2012, 08:00:29 AM »
If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Jaw-droppingly accurate and to the point.

You're not going to believe this -- I can hardly believe it myself -- but Femitheist, I'm glad you're here.
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Femitheist

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #25 on: Jun 17, 2012, 08:10:04 AM »
If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Jaw-droppingly accurate and to the point.

You're not going to believe this -- I can hardly believe it myself -- but Femitheist, I'm glad you're here.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #26 on: Jun 18, 2012, 02:28:13 AM »
If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Jaw-droppingly accurate and to the point.

You're not going to believe this -- I can hardly believe it myself -- but Femitheist, I'm glad you're here.

In theory, I agree with Femitheist's point. Unfortunately, I don't think people are spherical cows. People will form uninformed opinions, coloured by the blogs they read and the twitterers they follow, and they will act on those opinions. It's just human nature.

I haven't seen Prometheus yet. But I hear that the science in it sucks and it's poorly scripted. Has that hearsay changed my opinion of the movie? Yes. I'm no longer that interested in seeing it at the cinema, which I was, and am now happy to watch the Blu-Ray when it comes out. Uninformed opinion? Yes. Influenced by only a few people? Sure. Should I go see it anyway? Probably, but now I believe I've got better things to spend my money on. I've never much liked going to the movies anyway, and Prometheus is no longer on my must-see list.
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Femitheist

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #27 on: Jun 18, 2012, 03:30:22 AM »
If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Jaw-droppingly accurate and to the point.

You're not going to believe this -- I can hardly believe it myself -- but Femitheist, I'm glad you're here.

In theory, I agree with Femitheist's point. Unfortunately, I don't think people are spherical cows. People will form uninformed opinions, coloured by the blogs they read and the twitterers they follow, and they will act on those opinions. It's just human nature.

I haven't seen Prometheus yet. But I hear that the science in it sucks and it's poorly scripted. Has that hearsay changed my opinion of the movie? Yes. I'm no longer that interested in seeing it at the cinema, which I was, and am now happy to watch the Blu-Ray when it comes out. Uninformed opinion? Yes. Influenced by only a few people? Sure. Should I go see it anyway? Probably, but now I believe I've got better things to spend my money on. I've never much liked going to the movies anyway, and Prometheus is no longer on my must-see list.

I don't know if I can agree that choosing whether or not to see a movie, which costs money, is equivalent to pondering deep, philosophical meanings, musing over science and joining a forum to discuss topics, which is also free. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Offline Zytheran

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #28 on: Jun 18, 2012, 06:20:14 AM »
[
Eh, this is all like high school. Everyone and their clique. Cliques vs cliques. I hate tribal stuff, circling the wagons, in-group/out-group. People are talking yelling past each other and browbeating. This is where hypocrisy, bigotry, and sectarianism raise their ugly heads. Cooler, wiser, heads are getting shouted down.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'both sides do it', or that a controversy hasn't been manufactured or ginned up in some (not necessarily deliberate) way (with the exception of maybe two people I've noticed that really really REALLY hate the forums and the mods, and aren't missing an opportunity to take potshots or fan the flames).

Where's Zytheran and our other social scientists? They's got some 'splainin to do.

It's pretty toxic and nasty out right now. SGUF is currently being used as a strawman by folks who are blind to the irony of what they are doing, which is a pity because I think there have been some valid criticisms leveled at us, but those points of validity are being drowned out by a mob caught up in a frenzy.

When there's a reactionary shit storm going on that can't be bothered with reason or compelled by facts, I do what I always do; put in earbuds, take a klonipin, and focus on something either productive or calming, because otherwise I have panic attacks or rage fits. Life is too short for such unfortunate petulance, but it is so hard to look away... Harder not to jump in. Earbuds... Klonipin... Cycle... (hey, that's how I got through high school)

What else can you do?
[/spoiler]
As to your question.."Where's Zytheran" , well busy drinking alcohol before reading this forum or the total shit I have read on other forums is where I usually am.  >:(
I'll be upfront, I have have zero faith in this being resovled in any reasonable way as I'm seeing many, many unreasonable people who are unwilling to admit they were wrong and change their views.  The irony is that these people all claim to be skeptics.  :'(
And you know what, ignorance IS bliss. Knowing what I know about human behaviour because of my profession just makes this latest shit-storm even more annoying because of what I see. I could write a fucking encyclopaedia about the vast range of cognitive biases displayed over the whole RW/DJ issue by a whole pile of people.

I'm not going to go into details because IMHO it would achieve nothing, the wagons are circled and sunk cost bias will dictate future behaviour. Lot's of people have invested too much emotional energy to back down and I don't believe they will, ironically claiming to be free thinkers / skeptics / whatever.

So here's my suggestion to everyone, put down the internets and read some books:
Kida; "Don't believe everything you think"
Hallinan "Why we make mistakes"
Lehrer "How we decide"
Van Hecke "Blind Spots: Why smart people do dumb things"
Schulz "Being Wrong"
Freedman "Wrong"
Fine "A mind of it's own"
Burton "On being certain"

Yes, there is a common theme to those books. Suitable for both genders just in case for some stupid reason that point needs to be made.
And now I'm going to the "What are you drinking?" thread to get some ideas. Watching a group tear itself apart and not tear the fucking enemies apart is driving me to drink.

Offline Plastique

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Re: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head
« Reply #29 on: Jun 18, 2012, 08:14:21 AM »
I'll be upfront, I have have zero faith in this being resovled in any reasonable way as I'm seeing many, many unreasonable people who are unwilling to admit they were wrong and change their views.  The irony is that these people all claim to be skeptics.  :'(

Mmm, probably, but I think one of the biggest problems of all this is that it involves value judgments.

 

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