Topic: This forum is suddenly taking blows to the head

[Calinthalus]

Besides, there's a clearly documented procedure for when your pub gets invaded by combative jerks.  I believe first you offer them a drink and a seat at the bar.  After that I forget the details but I think it contains the phrase, "make like a tree and get the fuck out." 

Nice reference.

[Dileas]

I'll be upfront, I have have zero faith in this being resovled in any reasonable way as I'm seeing many, many unreasonable people who are unwilling to admit they were wrong and change their views.  The irony is that these people all claim to be skeptics. 

Mmm, probably, but I think one of the biggest problems of all this is that it involves value judgments.

It's not value judgements.  After all, you and I can disagree about whether chocolate or vanilla is the best ice cream flavour of all time, without being dismissive, insulting, or bigoted.

No, the "biggest problem" is that it's an ideological battle.  Feminism as an ideology is, of course, incompatible with a male-centric world view, so it's no surprise that it opposes anti-female sexism.  However, the form of feminism practiced by the more radical adherents is also incompatible with skepticism, which is why they have a problem with us.  When you're engaged in ideological warfare, you want blind and unquestioning obedience in order to defeat The Enemy - you certainly don't want your followers starting to think for themselves.  When someone comes along and says "hold on, is there any data to support these assertions?", that's a threat to the movement, and the person doing it must be shamed into submission or irrelevance.

[Plastique]

I feel like you believe you just proved that it's not about value judgments. How is it that ideologies aren't value-based again?

[Karyn]

(click to show/hide)

Eh, this is all like high school. Everyone and their clique. Cliques vs cliques. I hate tribal stuff, circling the wagons, in-group/out-group. People are talking yelling past each other and browbeating. This is where hypocrisy, bigotry, and sectarianism raise their ugly heads. Cooler, wiser, heads are getting shouted down.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'both sides do it', or that a controversy hasn't been manufactured or ginned up in some (not necessarily deliberate) way (with the exception of maybe two people I've noticed that really really REALLY hate the forums and the mods, and aren't missing an opportunity to take potshots or fan the flames).

Where's Zytheran and our other social scientists? They's got some 'splainin to do.

It's pretty toxic and nasty out right now. SGUF is currently being used as a strawman by folks who are blind to the irony of what they are doing, which is a pity because I think there have been some valid criticisms leveled at us, but those points of validity are being drowned out by a mob caught up in a frenzy.

When there's a reactionary shit storm going on that can't be bothered with reason or compelled by facts, I do what I always do; put in earbuds, take a klonipin, and focus on something either productive or calming, because otherwise I have panic attacks or rage fits. Life is too short for such unfortunate petulance, but it is so hard to look away... Harder not to jump in. Earbuds... Klonipin... Cycle... (hey, that's how I got through high school)

What else can you do?

As to your question.."Where's Zytheran" , well busy drinking alcohol before reading this forum or the total shit I have read on other forums is where I usually am. 
I'll be upfront, I have have zero faith in this being resovled in any reasonable way as I'm seeing many, many unreasonable people who are unwilling to admit they were wrong and change their views.  The irony is that these people all claim to be skeptics. 
And you know what, ignorance IS bliss. Knowing what I know about human behaviour because of my profession just makes this latest shit-storm even more annoying because of what I see. I could write a fucking encyclopaedia about the vast range of cognitive biases displayed over the whole RW/DJ issue by a whole pile of people.

I'm not going to go into details because IMHO it would achieve nothing, the wagons are circled and sunk cost bias will dictate future behaviour. Lot's of people have invested too much emotional energy to back down and I don't believe they will, ironically claiming to be free thinkers / skeptics / whatever. [/spoiler]

So here's my suggestion to everyone, put down the internets and read some books:
Kida; "Don't believe everything you think"
Hallinan "Why we make mistakes"
Lehrer "How we decide"
Van Hecke "Blind Spots: Why smart people do dumb things"
Schulz "Being Wrong"
Freedman "Wrong"
Fine "A mind of it's own"
Burton "On being certain"

Yes, there is a common theme to those books. Suitable for both genders just in case for some stupid reason that point needs to be made.
And now I'm going to the "What are you drinking?" thread to get some ideas. Watching a group tear itself apart and not tear the fucking enemies apart is driving me to drink.

I've read half of those and the rest are going on my amazon list.  I'm curious why you didn't include Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me.  Or is it just a rehash of other books that are better?

[Hanes]

I feel like you believe you just proved that it's not about value judgments. How is it that ideologies aren't value-based again?

Because they aren't skeptical.

For example,

"I'm an an environmentalist so I recycle."

"Recycling isn't always the best thing for the environment."

"No you're just lazy!"

In that half-baked example, for the hypothetical person recycling is no longer based on their value of the environment, it's become an ideology in and of itself.  Skepticism of the efficacy of recycling is treated like an attack on the values it was originally based on, even if those skeptical questions and critiques are based on the same value judgement (environmentalism, in this case).

Obviously real life cases are going to be more complex, with many shades of grey.  I'm trying to draw out a good example from the current kerfuffle, but I'm not thinking of one that doesn't smudge out too many shades for my liking.

[Dileas]

I feel like you believe you just proved that it's not about value judgments. How is it that ideologies aren't value-based again?

It's as if you had said that all cars have a tendency to explode for no reason, I explained that this only happens with a specific subset of Ford Exploders, and you came back with "how is it that Ford's aren't cars again?".

They are, more or less, but if you're asking that question you've completely missed the point.

[Plastique]

I feel like you believe you just proved that it's not about value judgments. How is it that ideologies aren't value-based again?

It's as if you had said that all cars have a tendency to explode for no reason, I explained that this only happens with a specific subset of Ford Exploders, and you came back with "how is it that Ford's aren't cars again?".

They are, more or less, but if you're asking that question you've completely missed the point.

I get your analogy. It seems like you think they're railing against a straw man.

[Zytheran]

(click to show/hide)

Eh, this is all like high school. Everyone and their clique. Cliques vs cliques. I hate tribal stuff, circling the wagons, in-group/out-group. People are talking yelling past each other and browbeating. This is where hypocrisy, bigotry, and sectarianism raise their ugly heads. Cooler, wiser, heads are getting shouted down.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'both sides do it', or that a controversy hasn't been manufactured or ginned up in some (not necessarily deliberate) way (with the exception of maybe two people I've noticed that really really REALLY hate the forums and the mods, and aren't missing an opportunity to take potshots or fan the flames).

Where's Zytheran and our other social scientists? They's got some 'splainin to do.

It's pretty toxic and nasty out right now. SGUF is currently being used as a strawman by folks who are blind to the irony of what they are doing, which is a pity because I think there have been some valid criticisms leveled at us, but those points of validity are being drowned out by a mob caught up in a frenzy.

When there's a reactionary shit storm going on that can't be bothered with reason or compelled by facts, I do what I always do; put in earbuds, take a klonipin, and focus on something either productive or calming, because otherwise I have panic attacks or rage fits. Life is too short for such unfortunate petulance, but it is so hard to look away... Harder not to jump in. Earbuds... Klonipin... Cycle... (hey, that's how I got through high school)

What else can you do?

As to your question.."Where's Zytheran" , well busy drinking alcohol before reading this forum or the total shit I have read on other forums is where I usually am. 
I'll be upfront, I have have zero faith in this being resovled in any reasonable way as I'm seeing many, many unreasonable people who are unwilling to admit they were wrong and change their views.  The irony is that these people all claim to be skeptics. 
And you know what, ignorance IS bliss. Knowing what I know about human behaviour because of my profession just makes this latest shit-storm even more annoying because of what I see. I could write a fucking encyclopaedia about the vast range of cognitive biases displayed over the whole RW/DJ issue by a whole pile of people.

I'm not going to go into details because IMHO it would achieve nothing, the wagons are circled and sunk cost bias will dictate future behaviour. Lot's of people have invested too much emotional energy to back down and I don't believe they will, ironically claiming to be free thinkers / skeptics / whatever. [/spoiler]

So here's my suggestion to everyone, put down the internets and read some books:
Kida; "Don't believe everything you think"
Hallinan "Why we make mistakes"
Lehrer "How we decide"
Van Hecke "Blind Spots: Why smart people do dumb things"
Schulz "Being Wrong"
Freedman "Wrong"
Fine "A mind of it's own"
Burton "On being certain"

Yes, there is a common theme to those books. Suitable for both genders just in case for some stupid reason that point needs to be made.
And now I'm going to the "What are you drinking?" thread to get some ideas. Watching a group tear itself apart and not tear the fucking enemies apart is driving me to drink.

I've read half of those and the rest are going on my amazon list.  I'm curious why you didn't include Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me.  Or is it just a rehash of other books that are better?

Nope, my mistake. To make that list I just copied some of the easy reading titles off my work bookcase. "Mistakes were made.." is still on my Amazon wishlist and as I check, yep, there it is..May 9th, 2011.
Oh, no, DAMN YOU KARYN!, I stupidly opened my Amazon page to check and all those enticing recommendations show up.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo...............
...even today I flagged a book to buy, in .... 4 hours and 2 minutes...when my pay comes through...
'Effin Amazon have profiled me so well the place is just a huge honey pot...

[Lukas]

Wow, thanks Zytheran and Karyn for the reading recommendations, at last there is something productive coming out of this whole mess. And I found out that Lehrer's book is only $1.99 on Kindle, so I guess that's where I am going to start...

[arthwollipot]

If people are so easily swayed by the opinions of one person, are they really worth having here? Wouldn't true skeptics want to see for themselves what the forum is all about? I don't see any "Skeptics" logic in taking the opinions of a few people, without questioning their validity, and assuming that they must be absolutely true. I imagine a true skeptic would question everything, come here, and find out the truth on their own.

That's just my opinion.

Jaw-droppingly accurate and to the point.

You're not going to believe this -- I can hardly believe it myself -- but Femitheist, I'm glad you're here.

In theory, I agree with Femitheist's point. Unfortunately, I don't think people are spherical cows. People will form uninformed opinions, coloured by the blogs they read and the twitterers they follow, and they will act on those opinions. It's just human nature.

I haven't seen Prometheus yet. But I hear that the science in it sucks and it's poorly scripted. Has that hearsay changed my opinion of the movie? Yes. I'm no longer that interested in seeing it at the cinema, which I was, and am now happy to watch the Blu-Ray when it comes out. Uninformed opinion? Yes. Influenced by only a few people? Sure. Should I go see it anyway? Probably, but now I believe I've got better things to spend my money on. I've never much liked going to the movies anyway, and Prometheus is no longer on my must-see list.

I don't know if I can agree that choosing whether or not to see a movie, which costs money, is equivalent to pondering deep, philosophical meanings, musing over science and joining a forum to discuss topics, which is also free. Maybe I'm wrong though.

It's just an analogy, and like all analogies, imperfect.