Topic: Two interesting conversations re Atheism and Feminism

[Tai Fung]

I listened to two interesting conversations from the "Ask an Atheist" radio show (reduced to short podcasts).  I found myself almost cheering at parts of the first one, and nodding a lot during the second one, which talked about the fallout from the first podcast.  I hate to add more listening material, but I think it's worth it.  The hosts strike me as centrists on the "Yay RW" vs "Boo RW" spectrum.  They seem interested in education & solutions, vs. just name calling.  I will admit they come across more negative to the Skepchick contingent, but I think that it's not because they have an axe to grind.

Anyway, just an FYI.  I think it's interesting.  You might not.

The first podcast includes a call-in from Stephanie Zvan, who debates the issue with the hosts.

http://askanatheist.tv/2012/06/10/the-problem-of-dogmatic-feminism/

The "fallout discussion" podcast:

http://askanatheist.tv/2012/06/12/dogmatic-feminism-discussion-podcast-part-1/


To the mods -- if you want to stick this thread in a different forum section, fine.  You can delete it if you think it's just flamebait, or somehow promotes a different podcast from the SGU.  I just thought it was on-point, reasonable, and interesting to hear the take of someone who isn't in the thick of the . . . drama/fight/whatever.

[Karyn]

Thought they were great shows myself.

[Skeptress]

Thanks for the link.  Listening now.  Can't help commenting as I listen otherwise I'll forget.  Quotes may be summaries or my wording rather than exact.

"You can't play tit-for-tat. We can't create a safe space for women by creating an unsafe space for men."
Amen sister!

"Bloggers and people who comment on the blog posts are part of the problem."
Both women and men.

"Afraid to join the fray. We don't have any women that are agreeing with this."
Of course there are women agreeing we just aren't prominent enough to be heard over the howls.

"Men who are in positions of power and pursue women are sexual predators."
WTF? Someone said this?

"Left religion because shame was used as a tactic."
Yep.

"There is just shame. There isn't a whole lot of education."
Exactly!

"We all want men to understand ways it's appropriate to act to women."
Again, exactly which funnily enough was kind of how elevator-gate started before it was blown out of all proportion.

Stephanie uses special pleading (??) again and again to apologize for her blog posts without really apologizing. 

The podcasters are only a bit younger than me but say that feminism was a part of their education.  I'd like to know where they grew up because it certainly wasn't a part of mine.

"An additive model is what we need."
Totally agree.

"We need to exam our feminist tropes."
Yes!

ETA: Will listen to the second show after baseball tonight.

[Karyn]

Thanks for the link.  Listening now.  Can't help commenting as I listen otherwise I'll forget.  Quotes may be summaries or my wording rather than exact.

"You can't play tit-for-tat. We can't create a safe space for women by creating an unsafe space for men."
Amen sister!

"Bloggers and people who comment on the blog posts are part of the problem."
Both women and men.

"Afraid to join the fray. We don't have any women that are agreeing with this."
Of course there are women agreeing we just aren't prominent enough to be heard over the howls.

"Men who are in positions of power and pursue women are sexual predators."
WTF? Someone said this?

"Left religion because shame was used as a tactic."
Yep.

"There is just shame. There isn't a whole lot of education."
Exactly!

"We all want men to understand ways it's appropriate to act to women."
Again, exactly which funnily enough was kind of how elevator-gate started before it was blown out of all proportion.

Stephanie uses special pleading (??) again and again to apologize for her blog posts without really apologizing. 

The podcasters are only a bit younger than me but say that feminism was a part of their education.  I'd like to know where they grew up because it certainly wasn't a part of mine.

"An additive model is what we need."
Totally agree.

"We need to exam our feminist tropes."
Yes!

ETA: Will listen to the second show after baseball tonight.

I think most of the ask an atheist people grew up around the Seattle/Tacoma area. 

[Skeptress]

Ok, listening to the second one now.  I like how they off the top discuss that skepticism isn't just what is happening on the blogs.  I think sometimes we forget that.

RE: disgusting, threatening emails, comments on blogs - how do they (feminist bloggers and well known female skeptics) know those are coming from within the community?  Don't prominent male atheists and skeptics get that kind of crap too?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen but to assume that it is even a majority from within is not warranted.

What is ERV?

Lots and lots of head nodding.

[Karyn]

I just chatted with Mike (one of the other hosts) a bit.  Apparently they are now getting a lot of vitriol over this.  Head over to their facebook page or website, and give em some support.

[Desert Fox]

Started listening to it on my way home from work

[Tai Fung]

I just chatted with Mike (one of the other hosts) a bit.  Apparently they are now getting a lot of vitriol over this.  Head over to their facebook page or website, and give em some support.

Done!



Edit:

A quote from one of the AAA defenders, which I quite enjoyed: 

Becky, my honest advice is to not get sucked in. These people spend their days in front of a screen construing and misconstruing the words and motivations of others, with a horde of agreers to make them feel good about it. There’s just no way anyone can make headway on introducing a different opinion. Blogging is a sociological problem.

[Desert Fox]

Having listened to the second part, I feel like the awkward guy that e-mailed the "Ask an Atheist" crew.

[Tai Fung]

Having listened to the second part, I feel like the awkward guy that e-mailed the "Ask an Atheist" crew.

You aren't alone! 

[Desert Fox]

Part 2 is also pretty good. . . I really like the way they tried to take a moderate position on it

[Belgarath]

I also want to know who 'the ERV' people are.  I don't know either, Skeptress.

[Karyn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERV

ERV is an abbreviation that may refer to:

    Endogenous retrovirus, an inherited retrovirus encoded in an organism's genome
    Energy recovery ventilation, systems where hot exhaust air is recovered to partially heat fresh air and save energy
    English Revised Version, English-language copy of the 19th century Revised Version of the King James Bible
    Emergency response vehicle, vehicles associated with emergency services including ambulances, fire trucks and police vehicles
    Expiratory reserve volume, lung volume representing the difference between a normal exhalation and a forced exhalation that removes as much air as possible from the lungs
    Earth return vehicle, spacecraft that forms a portion of the Mars Direct proposal responsible for returning the astronauts to Earth

I don't know, I haven't gotten that far.  Busy weekend.

[Ajzzz]

I also want to know who 'the ERV' people are.  I don't know either, Skeptress.

From what I understand from the comments of AskanAtheist and various blogs, ERV is a blog (seems to be on scienceblogs), and the people who comment there set up some kind of wiki and went to other blogs and forums.

"Men who are in positions of power and pursue women are sexual predators."
WTF? Someone said this?

Was actually Jen Mccreight. There is allegedly a male speaker that aims to sleep with a woman at every event. It's exactly what you quote. Throwing around words like "misogyny" and "predator" is not helpful.

[Desert Fox]

Obviously they are not that well known because I have never heard of them. . . .
Just been trying to get information on the first ERV on the list as well