Topic: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread

[seaotter]

Awareness has been raised.  That is a good thing.

I can only suggest that the mods try to keep a closer eye on 'hot button' topics and tap down the emotionalism before it gets too high. I think both of the previous drama storms could have been minimized/averted by earlier intervention of cooler heads to remind all parties to keep things polite and respectful. My 2¢.

For me I can't stop. I will argue and argue and argue until it's ridiculous. Warn us when it's clear that we are just bickering. And I mean the mod box, but sometimes I need a ref to separate us.

[Skulker]

Awareness has been raised.  That is a good thing.

I can only suggest that the mods try to keep a closer eye on 'hot button' topics and tap down the emotionalism before it gets too high. I think both of the previous drama storms could have been minimized/averted by earlier intervention of cooler heads to remind all parties to keep things polite and respectful. My 2¢.

For me I can't stop. I will argue and argue and argue until it's ridiculous. Warn us when it's clear that we are just bickering. And I mean the mod box, but sometimes I need a ref to separate us.

My point exactly. Someone to call a time out. 

[Ajzzz]

Can't we let people express themselves and just deal with things we disagree with as adults? Banning certain words or phrases, I don't think that solves any genuine problem, it's just something for people who care about pointless things to do, to make them feel superior. I'd much prefer to see genuine expression, even if it's things I disagree with. There's a lot of things I'd prefer people not to do in a discussion, but I'd rather leave them be, at least people can actually see them for what they are. Expression isn't pointless unless it's nonsense.

I don't think calling the people on these boards misogynists is accurate or helpful, even those that I consider have many sexist views. Even if they do advocate "evolutionary psychology" that I disagree with, they're just ignorant or wrong, it doesn't mean they hate anyone. Also it's not all bunk, at least some of it "unproven" or "unsupported" which isn't "not science". If we were to go around calling people out for hatred for citing things that aren't science then there's plenty without "feminist" ideologies that people espouse here.

The privilege concept is completely unhelpful rhetoric to silence discussion by framing it as something that is black and white when it's definitely not, it's nonsense. It's become shorthand for just telling certain classes of people to shut up or telling people to discount what they say because of who is saying it.

[seaotter]

Yes Ajzzz we do and I feel confident the mod team will continue to make this the place it is. Free thought in an abuse free zone.

[Beleth]

Free thought in an abuse free zone.

I don't think there's a better, more concise way to put it. Well done.
 

[seaotter]

Free thought in an abuse free zone.

I don't think there's a better, more concise way to put it. Well done.
 

TM

[Tai Fung]

Free thought in an abuse free zone.

I don't think there's a better, more concise way to put it. Well done.
 

Indeed, well done.  +1

[Tai Fung]

Free thought in an abuse free zone.

I don't think there's a better, more concise way to put it. Well done.
 

I wonder if the Pharyngula folks have a policy like that? 

[Eternally Learning]

A little late to the game here but I still want to throw my thoughts around.  I've spoilered them for convenience.

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This quote nicely sums up just my feelings on most of the detractors of our site I've heard about over the past week:

I do think it'd be nice if some of the critics actually came here to see what it's really like, rather than just criticising from afar.

With the exception of Natalie (who was a memeber for a short bit that contributed in a number of unrelated and diverse threads) I'm not aware that any of those who say we are so horrible have actually bothered to look.  Rebecca has even flat out admitted that she's only ventured beyond the episode threads 5 times in the life of the forum and at least one of those times was to a thread that was basically about us being upset with her.  A famous saying came to mind when considering what our effort should be to change these people's opinions, "You cannot reason someone out of what they didn't reason themselves into."  I feel no uncertainty in stating quite firmly that the opinions of these people (again, except perhaps Natalie) are not valid as they are quite plainly not based on any kind of rational inquiry or evaluation.  They are reactionary and intensely biased and whatever their motivations for settling on their conclusions,  I don't think much we say will shake them from their positions.  Better to just show we mean what we say when we disagree.

That out of the way, I don't think we should throw out their methods of gaining their ideas of this place with what those ideas actually are.  It's very disturbing to me to think that this place may have a bigoted chord within it, no matter how unintentional or rarely struck.  The fact that feminist or trans related threads have a habit of bringing about some considerable drama is, I think, enough reason to give us pause and at least take a moment to ask the question of ourselves, "Is there any truth to what they are saying?"  So far, my response has been in line with everyone else; that the charges of bigotry are clearly false.  I'm thinking now though, that perhaps we owe it to ourselves to open up a thread to discuss the question free of the context of our accusers.

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With barely an exception, I'm very happy with our mod team and the manner in which they patrol the boards and I don't think the rules are seriously lacking in any particular area.  That being said, I do think that perhaps Natalie's experience here offers a glimpse into on exceedingly rare occurrence that may indeed require some adjustment to either the rules, the modding style, or just plain reporting by us users.  One of the perceptions she left here with (warranted or not) was that people were harassing her with far too personal questions in every thread she visited.  Although I personally was confused about what aspects of being trans she wanted to talk about and which she didn't, I think she made it clear that it was not all on the table.

It also became evident to me that despite the tendency of most of us (stop me if I'm perceiving this wrong here) to openly evaluate in threads our own personal thought processes, mental failings, and often personal details and stories she did not share that tendency.  Basically, I think that perhaps we all need to realize that not everyone is as open about dispassionate self-discussion as we are and learn to not ask questions we are dying to know the answers to, and if any rules or Mod behavior need to be changed/added, it should be to avoid harassment, perceived or real.

(click to show/hide)

It needs to be there.  The ability to post things that disappear over time is a valuable tool to be able to vent, ask personal questions, and to just be stupid.  That being said, I think getting rid of the drool threads is a very good idea.  I find it reasonable to define men looking at a Playboy in the workplace where women can see as sexual harassment, and I don't see any reason why it's any different here.  The fact alone that many of the women here had to personally decide not to let it bother them speaks to that I think.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it just like looking at a Playboy is not a bad thing but context matters and as others have pointed out, this is more a matter of tact than anything else.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that I too agree quite a bit with what Meg and Hanes said earlier.  Also Panda, your new avatar cracks me the hell up .

[Kayto]

I'm another female member. I think I've been a member almost since the board started?

I wanted to say, for record, that I pretty much see things the same as how Meg stated them on page 3. I'm not sure if I agree so strongly with that post because I am female or some other reason(s).


Adding to that.....

As far as jokes and sarcasm, I think people should be careful ----- my opinion.

Things can easily be taken the wrong way. After typing a joke, you can't see the recipient's face ---- to respond with "Hey that was just a joke."

People for whom English is a second language might not always "get it." And people who may be significantly older or younger might not "get it." People who's culture doesn't find humor to be as benign as in some other cultures might take offense. People who are newer to these kinds of forums might not "get it." There can be a harshness or sometimes a "lightness", here, that does not normally exist in other places - at least for me. Example: Nowhere else, in my experience, is there talk about "rape jokes." There is just no such thing --- it's almost unthinkable. I am female, over 40, and live in a high crime area -- which might account for there not being "rape jokes" in my experience.

I don't really think people need to stop sarcasm or jokes. But I do think that people need to beware that others could take offense and/or misunderstand. Again it's just my opinion. (Occasionally, I just get irritated because I would rather read serious thoughts and discussions. And I can get annoyed when someone actually tries to argue a point by just throwing out some sarcasm - to me it's like the "So THERE!" argument that kids use. But I wonder if some people might think that joking about what they consider to be an important issue is, in itself, insulting?)

[Louie]

Although I personally was confused about what aspects of being trans she wanted to talk about and which she didn't, I think she made it clear that it was not all on the table.

Not to go into this particular case in much detail again, but what EL wrote there struck a chord with me and made me remember what my attitude towards the matter was at the time. I too was confused about what she wanted and what she didn't want to talk about. And even the things she said she didn't want to talk about, she talked about when others asked her about them. It all made for a very complicated problem, which, sadly, didn't get resolved well.

[wastrel]

If Explicit tends to be a biggie, why not make it an opt-in board? If you want it, request it. If you don't....don't.

[seaotter]

Sounds good. I have explicit blocked so the board might look very different to someone who sees all the explicit threads. I know karenX always thought the explicit section was an area particularly unwelcoming of most women.

[Eternally Learning]

If Explicit tends to be a biggie, why not make it an opt-in board? If you want it, request it. If you don't....don't.

You will still have women wanting to go there to post in the bitching, YLYL, etc. threads.  That's why I think removing the drool threads would make sense or if nothing else split explicit up into mindless and mindful parts.  As for making it opt-in; is that actually a technical option for us?

[Johnny Slick]

If Explicit tends to be a biggie, why not make it an opt-in board? If you want it, request it. If you don't....don't.

I'd go so far (and have stated as such elsewhere) to make porn into its own sub-subforum that you have to opt into. I like the fact that threads go away from Explicit after a certain period of time. I don't like how from time to time people toss porn into non-porn Explicit threads just to be "funny" or else to scare off people posting from work.

As for the sarcasm thing, this is going to come off as incredibly mean, I am sure, but an awful lot of the time a person who is actually expressing some jerky opinion will say so in a slightly sarcastic tone and then, when called on it, will say "OMG I WAS ONLY JOKING". I've seen this behavior pop up in other forums and yes, I've seen it here (one poster in particular does this a lot). I think you need to be able to stand behind your words, even if your words were made in jest.