Topic: Guys* I want you to know...

[Skeptress]

I'm getting really sick of all the threads on this topic but I think this one needs to be said.

@Daniel: The problem with this is that people need to understand that at the point where the person has to say no, they are already harassed. The line has been crossed. They have been violated. People need to learn to act accordingly.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/11/the-problem-of-dogmatic-feminism/#comment-89215

This is absolutely not true.  If no one ever bothered to ask for fear of hearing "no" the human species would die out.  It is okay to ask someone for a drink, for coffee, for their number.  If you've been flirting in public for two hours and feeling particularly brave it's even okay to ask, "Want to go back to my room and get funky?"  Don't do these things in an elevator at 2:30am.  Don't do these things in a dark alley.  But in public, in daylight, go right ahead.  I'm going to feel flattered and pleased.  I'm not going to grab my rape whistle and bleat in your ear.  I may say, "No thank you."  I may even have a fit of the giggles.  But 99/100 to the first three I'm going to say yes because I for one need more friends in my life. 

I think you all know that having a drink, coffee, giving a phone number is NOT grounds for harassment, rape, whatever.  You know that women are not asking for "it".  You're adults and mostly well behaved.  Agreeing to go to your room and get funky: this still isn't asking for "it".  She can say "no" at any time and you need to back off.  Again I'm pretty sure you all know that and respect that.

When I was a child my teachers would warn the class before field trips that we were being examples of our school and town and needed to show people how polite and great both were.  So let's go out into the world and show how great skeptics, atheists and fans of SGU can be.

*ETA: And by "guys" I do mainly mean  the male of the species but include all of you in this.  I've never been asked by a lesbian but that wouldn't offend me either.  I just figure it means women are WAY more picky then men. 

[andrewclunn]

So it's official, feminists are saying that they are now required to make the first move.  Of course, when I say, "No!" I'm accusing them of harassment.

[Samhain]

Skeptress, thank you.  This is something that I feel is at the core of this entire fiasco, and it has been touched upon by a few people, but not so poignantly. 

[Tai Fung]

So it's official, feminists are saying that they are now required to make the first move.  Of course, when I say, "No!" I'm accusing them of harassment.

I suspect feminists would say that is just one commenter, and that the person doesn't speak for the majority of feminists.  Then they'll turn around and pick one troll commenter (or even a single poster here), and paint all of their opponents with that same broad brush. 

@Skeptress:  Heartfelt, important, and well-said.  Thanks for putting it out there.

[Kessdawg]

@Daniel: The problem with this is that people need to understand that at the point where the person has to say no, they are already harassed. The line has been crossed. They have been violated. People need to learn to act accordingly.

Someone actually said that???  WTF?

[Shibboleth]

I feel it is something that you can ask but you have to make sure that the situation is right.

[Beleth]

Thanks, Skeptress. I agree with you. Harassment can't possibly start until the first "no".
 

[Karyn]

Thanks, Skeptress. I agree with you. Harassment can't possibly start until the first "no".

Sure it can.  I'd count grab boob n' run groping harassment, and you generally don't have time to get a 'no' out before the person is off in the crowd.

But if you are just talking to someone, I would say the first 'no' is a good place to start counting harassment.

[Belgarath]

Thanks, Skeptress. I agree with you. Harassment can't possibly start until the first "no".

Sure it can.  I'd count grab boob n' run groping harassment, and you generally don't have time to get a 'no' out before the person is off in the crowd.

But if you are just talking to someone, I would say the first 'no' is a good place to start counting harassment.

There's certainly a difference between words and actions.  I don't think words should ever be considered harassment until AFTER you're told to stop.  Obviously there are some amazingly impolite ham handed things one could say, and those would be considered inappropriate or rude, but once you're told to stop being a moron, you should stop and move on.

[Skepdad]

As I read the comments from the Almost Diamonds thread, and a few others I clicked on while there, it became apparent that they think ANY acknowledgement of the female gender in the context of sexual/social interaction is an assault and is misogynistic. At first I thought I MUST be missing something but I could come to no other conclusion. Their position left absolutely NO opportunity for, what I believe to be, healthy heterosexual dialogue. None. All I could think was "Man, I hope my son doesn't have to tiptoe through that minefield when he hits his teens." I will certainly teach him to respect women and to treat them as equals and that "No means NO." but WILL NOT teach him that to show his interest in a girl is paramount to sexual assault. I will not. Their view may very well be result of real issues in the world but it is an extreme overreaction and has apparently caused a massive swing past an appropriate response and into the realm of ridiculous.

[Skulker]

Some of this goes back to the days when certain men thought that 'No' did not mean no but that it meant 'Try Harder.'

The old stereotype that a woman must play 'hard to get' in order to not be thought of as 'easy' are also taking a long time to change as well.

[David E.]

Bravo Skeptress.  Well said! 

[superdave]

I'm getting really sick of all the threads on this topic but I think this one needs to be said.

@Daniel: The problem with this is that people need to understand that at the point where the person has to say no, they are already harassed. The line has been crossed. They have been violated. People need to learn to act accordingly.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/11/the-problem-of-dogmatic-feminism/#comment-89215

This is absolutely not true.  If no one ever bothered to ask for fear of hearing "no" the human species would die out.  It is okay to ask someone for a drink, for coffee, for their number.  If you've been flirting in public for two hours and feeling particularly brave it's even okay to ask, "Want to go back to my room and get funky?"  Don't do these things in an elevator at 2:30am.  Don't do these things in a dark alley.  But in public, in daylight, go right ahead.  I'm going to feel flattered and pleased.  I'm not going to grab my rape whistle and bleat in your ear.  I may say, "No thank you."  I may even have a fit of the giggles.  But 99/100 to the first three I'm going to say yes because I for one need more friends in my life. 

I think you all know that having a drink, coffee, giving a phone number is NOT grounds for harassment, rape, whatever.  You know that women are not asking for "it".  You're adults and mostly well behaved.  Agreeing to go to your room and get funky: this still isn't asking for "it".  She can say "no" at any time and you need to back off.  Again I'm pretty sure you all know that and respect that.

When I was a child my teachers would warn the class before field trips that we were being examples of our school and town and needed to show people how polite and great both were.  So let's go out into the world and show how great skeptics, atheists and fans of SGU can be.

*ETA: And by "guys" I do mainly mean  the male of the species but include all of you in this.  I've never been asked by a lesbian but that wouldn't offend me either.  I just figure it means women are WAY more picky then men. 

In general and most situations, you are correct, but there are circumstances where merely askig is harrasment.  For example, a student is in his teacher's office to discuss a grade and she asks him out on a date.  In that situation, the student could easily take the suggestion as a bribe for a better grade, and merely being asked puts him in a terrible situation.  Now obviously, this is a more or less clear cut situation where the prof is being unethical.  But some skeptical feminists are suggesting that the same sort of dynamic occurs if a prominent famous skeptic asks out a lowly skeptical event goer.  To me that doesn't cross the line because the prominent skeptic does not have anywhere near as direct innfluence over a person's life as a college professor who has to give her a grade. 

[Skeptress]

I'm getting really sick of all the threads on this topic but I think this one needs to be said.

@Daniel: The problem with this is that people need to understand that at the point where the person has to say no, they are already harassed. The line has been crossed. They have been violated. People need to learn to act accordingly.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/11/the-problem-of-dogmatic-feminism/#comment-89215

This is absolutely not true.  If no one ever bothered to ask for fear of hearing "no" the human species would die out.  It is okay to ask someone for a drink, for coffee, for their number.  If you've been flirting in public for two hours and feeling particularly brave it's even okay to ask, "Want to go back to my room and get funky?"  Don't do these things in an elevator at 2:30am.  Don't do these things in a dark alley.  But in public, in daylight, go right ahead.  I'm going to feel flattered and pleased.  I'm not going to grab my rape whistle and bleat in your ear.  I may say, "No thank you."  I may even have a fit of the giggles.  But 99/100 to the first three I'm going to say yes because I for one need more friends in my life. 

I think you all know that having a drink, coffee, giving a phone number is NOT grounds for harassment, rape, whatever.  You know that women are not asking for "it".  You're adults and mostly well behaved.  Agreeing to go to your room and get funky: this still isn't asking for "it".  She can say "no" at any time and you need to back off.  Again I'm pretty sure you all know that and respect that.

When I was a child my teachers would warn the class before field trips that we were being examples of our school and town and needed to show people how polite and great both were.  So let's go out into the world and show how great skeptics, atheists and fans of SGU can be.

*ETA: And by "guys" I do mainly mean  the male of the species but include all of you in this.  I've never been asked by a lesbian but that wouldn't offend me either.  I just figure it means women are WAY more picky then men. 

In general and most situations, you are correct, but there are circumstances where merely askig is harrasment.  For example, a student is in his teacher's office to discuss a grade and she asks him out on a date.  In that situation, the student could easily take the suggestion as a bribe for a better grade, and merely being asked puts him in a terrible situation.  Now obviously, this is a more or less clear cut situation where the prof is being unethical.  But some skeptical feminists are suggesting that the same sort of dynamic occurs if a prominent famous skeptic asks out a lowly skeptical event goer.  To me that doesn't cross the line because the prominent skeptic does not have anywhere near as direct innfluence over a person's life as a college professor who has to give her a grade.

I agree with you  100%.  Obviously my post doesn't handle every single possible scenario.  And Karyn while I agree with you as well my post was about talking to someone not physical touching in any way. 

[EhJayArr]

I think that's very well said, Skeptress.