Author Topic: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?  (Read 791 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Johnny Slick

  • Jesus Christ HI PANDA U R HOT
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8976
  • Evilution's Worst Nightmare
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #30 on: Jun 18, 2012, 11:20:05 AM »
Yeah, that's flat out incorrect again. Several professional baseball players have been killed by pitched balls. This basically stopped after batting helmets were made mandatory(I think the last death occurred in 1955) but at the same time, go tell Tony Conigliaro that pitched balls aren't dangerous.Tell that to Dickie Thon.

I understand that, but as far as I know, pitchers aren't legally allowed to purposefully aim at the batsmen, unlike cricket bowlers. This is why I used "reasonably sure". Actually, this probably makes baseball more dangerous, as the batsman don't expect to have to duck and the bats (and especially the way they are used) aren't really good when it comes to self-protection.
Yeah... in the past that was not really a rule that was enforced at all. In the 1960s in particular there were several pitchers - Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson in particular - who built a large part of their reputation on the idea that they weren't afraid to throw at people. Nowadays, their antics would get them tossed out of games pretty quickly (and that's a good thing!) but even at that... it's a fact that right-handed hitters hit worse against right-handed pitchers than left-handed ones. One of the biggest reasons for this is that the curve ball looks like it's going to hit a same-handed batter before it dives back in over the plate. Really good curves are often called "knee buckling curves" because of the effect that they have on the morale of the batter.

The biggest difference between cricket and baseball that I see - and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that cricket batsmen are a lot more defensively-minded than baseball hitters. In cricket, I think that if you knock down all three wickets the side's over or something, whereas in baseball it's three strikes you're out but a. those three strikes can come anywhere in the strike zone (or out of it if you can get the other guy to swing at a bad pitch... I remember the last ball in Randy Johnson's no-hitter with the Mariners was a rising fastball that wound up a good 2 feet out of the zone), and b. a strikeout is no worse than any other out, really. So you get a lot more high-risk, high-reward hitters in baseball than in cricket, which in turn means DINGERS.

That's just a logical difference in the games, though, not any kind of talk of one game being better than the other one. Actually, talking to people not familiar with baseball IIRC the thing that really wows them isn't the tricky pitches (which are hard to pick up unless you know what you're looking for) or the massive clouts (which do happen in cricket, albeit not as often) but the acrobatic plays by the fielders, leaping onto the outfield wall to rob a hitter of a home run or diving deep into the hole at shortstop, getting up, and throwing a strike to first base before the baffled hitter can get there himself.

Quote
I appreciate that  you enjoy cricket but please can the superiority arguments until you actually learn things about baseball.
I wasn't making a superiority argument, I was just pointing out a scary quirk. If you go back and read what I've been writing, I was saying that when it comes to individual skill, the two games are roughly equal, with the exception of fielding.
Okay, sorry then. I admit to being a little charged about this from getting into arguments in the past with English folk re: the relative merits of rugby and American football (supposedly rugby is "more brutal" and therefore better because of the lack of pads protecting guys from breaking their collarbones when they ram into people at full speed... but I digress).
"Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone." - Oscar Wilde

Quote from: Schlock Treatment, Episode 73
There is only one Johnny Slick, and he is a son of a [redacted].
Quote
You're really good at bad ideas.

Offline Rai

  • PIZZASAURUS
  • Global Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790
    • An Tríliopach
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #31 on: Jun 18, 2012, 12:17:27 PM »
Yeah... in the past that was not really a rule that was enforced at all. In the 1960s in particular there were several pitchers - Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson in particular - who built a large part of their reputation on the idea that they weren't afraid to throw at people. Nowadays, their antics would get them tossed out of games pretty quickly (and that's a good thing!) but even at that... it's a fact that right-handed hitters hit worse against right-handed pitchers than left-handed ones. One of the biggest reasons for this is that the curve ball looks like it's going to hit a same-handed batter before it dives back in over the plate. Really good curves are often called "knee buckling curves" because of the effect that they have on the morale of the batter.

In cricket, aiming for the line of the batsman is extremely frequent. The only restriction is that the umpire can tell a bowler to stop bowling bouncers (deliveries aimed at the batsman that rears up to at least the chest of the batsman) after a while, based on the skill of the batsman. Deliveries aimed at the legs and feet can be bowled ad infinitum, sometimes resulting in broken bones, especially since a batsman can get out if the ball hits his pads under certain circumstances.

The biggest difference between cricket and baseball that I see - and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that cricket batsmen are a lot more defensively-minded than baseball hitters. In cricket, I think that if you knock down all three wickets the side's over or something, whereas in baseball it's three strikes you're out but a. those three strikes can come anywhere in the strike zone (or out of it if you can get the other guy to swing at a bad pitch... I remember the last ball in Randy Johnson's no-hitter with the Mariners was a rising fastball that wound up a good 2 feet out of the zone), and b. a strikeout is no worse than any other out, really. So you get a lot more high-risk, high-reward hitters in baseball than in cricket, which in turn means DINGERS.

Yes, that's the main difference. Cricket batsmen can, and, especially in the longest format, required to play defensively. They can even let a ball go past them, no worries. Their purpose is to protect the stumps, if they are hit, they are out (and the innings is over once 10 batsmen of the 11 are out). They can chose to hit, block or leave anything, and, what's also different from baseball, they can hit the ball anywhere, even flick it up to land well behind the wicket keeper (catcher). The amount of defensive/aggressive play depends on the batsman and the format. In 5-day test cricket, you'll see more defensive play, as it is based on attrition and endurance. In the shortest, T20 format, you'll see a lot of aggressive play, because there's no time for measured play, the innings is over in about 1,5-2 hours.

That's just a logical difference in the games, though, not any kind of talk of one game being better than the other one. Actually, talking to people not familiar with baseball IIRC the thing that really wows them isn't the tricky pitches (which are hard to pick up unless you know what you're looking for) or the massive clouts (which do happen in cricket, albeit not as often) but the acrobatic plays by the fielders, leaping onto the outfield wall to rob a hitter of a home run or diving deep into the hole at shortstop, getting up, and throwing a strike to first base before the baffled hitter can get there himself.

Well, people not familiar with cricket aren't really wowed by anything, because most of the time they have no clue what's happening, so there's another difference :P There are plenty of amazing deliveries, hits and acrobatic fielding, but they are spread over a long period of relative inactivity. At least it seems like that if you don't know exactly what's going on.

Quote
I appreciate that  you enjoy cricket but please can the superiority arguments until you actually learn things about baseball.
I wasn't making a superiority argument, I was just pointing out a scary quirk. If you go back and read what I've been writing, I was saying that when it comes to individual skill, the two games are roughly equal, with the exception of fielding.
Okay, sorry then. I admit to being a little charged about this from getting into arguments in the past with English folk re: the relative merits of rugby and American football (supposedly rugby is "more brutal" and therefore better because of the lack of pads protecting guys from breaking their collarbones when they ram into people at full speed... but I digress).
[/quote]

No probs. Such arguments can get especially grating.
There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos.

Online Citizen Skeptic

  • Planetary Skeptic
  • *
  • Posts: 21908
  • Not a conservative!
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #32 on: Jun 18, 2012, 01:00:21 PM »
I understand that, but as far as I know, pitchers aren't legally allowed to purposefully aim at the batsmen, unlike cricket bowlers.

You can't throw the ball at the batter intentionally.

I'm going to have to look into cricket. It sounds badass. There's a cricket league here in the valley too. :)

Offline Rai

  • PIZZASAURUS
  • Global Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790
    • An Tríliopach
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #33 on: Jun 18, 2012, 01:37:25 PM »
I understand that, but as far as I know, pitchers aren't legally allowed to purposefully aim at the batsmen, unlike cricket bowlers.

You can't throw the ball at the batter intentionally.

I'm going to have to look into cricket. It sounds badass. There's a cricket league here in the valley too. :)

You should watch the documentary Fire in Babylon about the 1970s-1980s West Indies team. There hasn't been a more agressive and badass team since those guys.
There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos.

Offline GodSlayer

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12463
  • Apteryx Pessimistus
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #34 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:23:02 AM »
I appreciate that  you enjoy cricket but...

enjoyment of cricket is not possible.
In fact, one theory holds that cricket was actually invented in response to the 1473 riots as an attempt to extinguish excitement.
Quote
"In making his way through life, a man will find it useful to be ready and able to do two things: to look ahead and to overlook: the one will protect him from loss and injury, the other from disputes and squabbles."

Offline GodSlayer

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12463
  • Apteryx Pessimistus
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #35 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:27:55 AM »
The biggest difference between cricket and baseball that I see - and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that cricket batsmen are a lot more defensively-minded than baseball hitters. In cricket, I think that if you knock down all three wickets the side's over or something, whereas in baseball it's three strikes you're out

Yes, that's the main difference. ...

wait, what? ... no response to the 'knock down all three wickets the side's over' part? is that a thing?!
Quote
"In making his way through life, a man will find it useful to be ready and able to do two things: to look ahead and to overlook: the one will protect him from loss and injury, the other from disputes and squabbles."

Offline Movius

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #36 on: Jun 19, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »
Bowling at a players body *on the full* in the same manner as an illegal baseball pitch is also prohibited in cricket. In fact, bowling the ball above the batsman's waist, particularly at the head (a 'beamer',) more than once is one of only two offences a bowler can be prohibited from bowling for (The other being following through on the pitch.)

Bowling at the body is legal if it bounces first is legal though. There are restrictions on repeatedly bowling the ball above the shoulders though (a 'bouncer') . 

The biggest difference between cricket and baseball that I see - and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that cricket batsmen are a lot more defensively-minded than baseball hitters. In cricket, I think that if you knock down all three wickets the side's over or something, whereas in baseball it's three strikes you're out

Yes, that's the main difference. ...

wait, what? ... no response to the 'knock down all three wickets the side's over' part? is that a thing?!
no


unrelated note: There are 2 rugbys, Rugby League & Rugby Union. You should distinguish between the two when discussing (The discussions in this thread are consistent with union.)
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2012, 11:25:41 AM by Movius »

Online Citizen Skeptic

  • Planetary Skeptic
  • *
  • Posts: 21908
  • Not a conservative!
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #37 on: Jun 19, 2012, 11:33:02 AM »
And baseball is exciting? Even a full blooded Cuban (we like to play beisbol) can't endorse the excitement of baseball. For action, give me hockey (as far as team sports).

Online Johnny Slick

  • Jesus Christ HI PANDA U R HOT
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8976
  • Evilution's Worst Nightmare
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #38 on: Jun 19, 2012, 11:36:37 AM »
I like baseball for the tension and for the probabilistic nature of the game ("the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter is a couple extra hits a week", that kind of thing). I wouldn't rank it up with basketball in terms of DEATH DEFYING THRILLS, but personally I don't need to experience EXTREME AWESOME SAUCE every second I am watching a sporting event.
"Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone." - Oscar Wilde

Quote from: Schlock Treatment, Episode 73
There is only one Johnny Slick, and he is a son of a [redacted].
Quote
You're really good at bad ideas.

Offline Rai

  • PIZZASAURUS
  • Global Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790
    • An Tríliopach
Re: Is it okay for a battered pitcher to hire a designated hitter?
« Reply #39 on: Jun 19, 2012, 12:01:31 PM »
Bowling at a players body *on the full* in the same manner as an illegal baseball pitch is also prohibited in cricket. In fact, bowling the ball above the batsman's waist, particularly at the head (a 'beamer',) more than once is one of only two offences a bowler can be prohibited from bowling for (The other being following through on the pitch.)

The above waist for pace bowlers, above the shoulders for slow bowlers. And actually, you have to bowl three non-intentional beamers to be sent off. The first two merit warnings and the second time, the captain is asked to take the bowler off. If the beamer was intentional, the bowler gets sent off immediately.

Mind you, a professional-level slow bowler is anyone who bowls under 57 mph (90m km/h). That's still fast as fuck.
There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos.