Author Topic: Human Language  (Read 605 times)

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Offline drphilgood

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Human Language
« on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:07:01 AM »
Is it finite or infinite?

Online arthwollipot

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #1 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:13:04 AM »
Nothing can be literally infinite.
Do or do not. There is no spoon.

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Offline drphilgood

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #2 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:18:21 AM »
Nothing can be literally infinite.

thats a whole nother thread lol

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #3 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:21:24 AM »
Nothing can be literally infinite.

thats a whole nother thread lol
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #4 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:23:30 AM »
Nothing can be literally infinite.

thats a whole nother thread lol

Not really. You've asked whether human language is infinite or not. The answer is clearly not, since nothing can be literally infinite.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #5 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:26:51 AM »
Also, how nebulous the question is suggests it to be religious in nature.
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #6 on: Jun 16, 2012, 08:07:21 AM »
Also, how nebulous the question is suggests it to be religious in nature.

You would be correct.


This thread is a spillover from this one.

This idea started from drphilgood talking about the idea that we dont have infinite language, therefore we cant describe an infinite god, and that his "gut feeling" was more convincing regarding god than language and discussion can be since our language cant represent all of the emotions we feel. After some other discussion, I posted this:

[...]

now that Im thinking about it, Im not convinced that we dont have infinite language anyway. If I have an emotion I cant describe, I can invent the word "I feel very blarglargle" which perfectly describes the emotion. It might not be very useful for talking to other people, but the word now exists and has a meaning. And I can put together letters and sounds in infinite combinations to make infinite language.

What youre actually saying is that we dont have an infinite ability to understand each other. And Id argue that the only reason for that is that we dont have infinite time to share our words and create the mutual understanding. Hypothetically, if we were in heaven and therefore had infinite time to discuss, do you have a reason to think we wouldnt eventually be able to fully understand each other regarding any particular given subject?
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #7 on: Jun 16, 2012, 08:16:46 AM »
Also, as language is something of a noisy extension of consciousness, there's no theoretical gap between feeling and articulative capacity.
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Offline drphilgood

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #8 on: Jun 16, 2012, 09:20:21 AM »
Nothing can be literally infinite.

thats a whole nother thread lol

Not really. You've asked whether human language is infinite or not. The answer is clearly not, since nothing can be literally infinite.

are you familiar with a color wheel?

Offline drphilgood

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #9 on: Jun 16, 2012, 09:21:33 AM »
btw i agree that human language is very finite.  i just dont agree that nothing is infinite.

Offline Plastique

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #10 on: Jun 16, 2012, 09:31:39 AM »
Infinite in what regard? Possible combinations of letters? If we keep making new letters, sure.

Language certainly encompasses the idea of infinity, being that we can represent the idea with a word.

I suppose I don't really get the question.

Offline Skeptress

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #11 on: Jun 16, 2012, 09:37:50 AM »
btw i agree that human language is very finite.  i just dont agree that nothing is infinite.

I disagree that it is very finite.  Human language is constantly evolving and creating.  If there is only a 2 point scale then you would have to say infinite because we haven't reached it's limits and imho can't.  Is any one language finite?  Yes because there are only so many phonemes within a language, however languages are constantly borrowing from other languages as needed therefor expanding the language.

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Offline drphilgood

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #12 on: Jun 16, 2012, 09:51:21 AM »
btw i agree that human language is very finite.  i just dont agree that nothing is infinite.

I disagree that it is very finite.  Human language is constantly evolving and creating.  If there is only a 2 point scale then you would have to say infinite because we haven't reached it's limits and imho can't.  Is any one language finite?  Yes because there are only so many phonemes within a language, however languages are constantly borrowing from other languages as needed therefor expanding the language.

Source: masters degree in applied linguistics, ESL teacher, mother

I really can't argue with those credentials lol.

I guess a different way to look at this question is... at any one given point in time, there can only be a finite amount of words/symbols/sounds that can be used in a single language.  Sure you can keep adding more and more words to a language but if no one knows what that word means than is it really part of that language? 

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #13 on: Jun 16, 2012, 11:06:19 AM »
I think the question should be read as referring to a hypothetical human's actual capacity, given its intent.

If we read it as referring to the language in the sense of it as being a code then absent any restriction on word length or tricky constructions then it is necessarily infinite for multiple reasons.
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: Human Language
« Reply #14 on: Jun 16, 2012, 11:25:48 AM »
These are different questions, though. In the end, I think human language is in fact finite. For one thing, infinite is a boolean: either something is infinite or it isn't. Even if a theoretical dictionary has 3 billion words in it, it's finite. For another, if you look back on the history of language, you just don't see a great deal of "advancement" in terms of linguistic complexity. Some languages are more complicated than others, and ones which are unrelated to your native tongue are harder to learn than those that have some relation, but there's not really a sense that I see of, for instance, ancient Sumerian and Greek being any less complicated than modern Farsi or Greek. Dialects like American English complicate this because it borrows from the vocabularies of many languages at once but structurally it's not necessarily any more complex than languages that sit all by themselves like Basque.

I will say that writing has an effect, as does mass media, but I'm not convinced either has the effect of making things *more* complicated. In fact, I think mass media all but eliminated dialects, which makes the language less varied and easier for a guy in one town to understand what another guy in another town is saying. The bottom line is this: any living language more or less has to be understood by the average 5 year old and mastered by the average 20 year old. Otherwise it doesn't work and people adapt it to set it to those standards.
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