Author Topic: Episode #361  (Read 2229 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #361
« on: Jun 16, 2012, 11:26:06 AM »
This Day in Skepticism - Captain Picard Day
News Items: LiDar, Extremophiles, Moral Behavior, Cervical Manipulation, Ghost Train
Who's That Noisy
Your Questions and E-mails: Pharmacist Homeopaths
Name That Logical Fallacy
Science or Fiction
Steven Novella
Host, The Skeptics Guide
snovella@theness.com

Offline wallet55

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #1 on: Jun 16, 2012, 11:27:33 AM »
Thanks for the podcast!
Humankind cannot stand very much reality.   T. S. Eliot

Offline alh

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #2 on: Jun 16, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »
WTN: foxes   (a guess)

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #3 on: Jun 16, 2012, 01:36:49 PM »
This is the band you were trying to remember:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_characters#Hotblack_Desiato

"Hotblack Desiato" is the name of a firm of North London estate agents (really!), and Douglas Adams got their permission to use the name but later they found that people assumed they had stolen the name from him! Still, all publicity is good publicity, even in the dodgy world of real estate (as I believe you former colonials call it).

"Extremophiles" might be a good name for a heavy rock band, but unfortunately, in the UK at least, the tabloid newspapers have convinced the public that any title ending in "phile" refers to a nasty, evil person who should have their windows smashed and then be dragged out and lynched. Likewise any title beginning "paed", such as paediatrician.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #4 on: Jun 16, 2012, 03:03:35 PM »
Regarding the email about pharmacist-prescribed drugs...

In the UK we already have three classes of drugs (four if you include stuff even doctors aren't allowed to prescribe, like cannabis): those which must be prescribed by a doctor, those which can be bought over the counter in a pharmacy, and those which you can buy over the shelf in the pharmacy of a supermarket.

For the second class, the pharmacist will normally simply ask "Have you used this before?". If you answer "Yes" then normally no more questions are asked.

The third class has some bizarre rules. For example, you are not allowed to buy more than two packs of certain drugs such as painkillers or (for some reason) antihistamine, regardless of whether you are buying the large or small pack. It's a mixing rule, so if you want to buy painkillers and antihistamine you can only buy one pack of each. On the other hand you can buy packs of Buscopan (hyoscine, as in the poison from deadly nightshade) tablets off the shelf, but the instructions say you should not take them unless your doctor has diagnosed certain digestive disorders. It's not stated whether this is because the tablets themselves could be dangerous, or whether it is just that if you have chronic gut ache you should get it checked in case it is something serious.

But then our supermarket rules are crazy. I've been age-checked for buying plastic picnic cutlery and for non-alcoholic wine. In a tool shop just about anyone can buy all sorts of dangerous objects but if the title contains the word "knife" (e.g. a flexible, plastic palette knife for applying filler) then they have to check your age.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Tubi

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #5 on: Jun 16, 2012, 04:18:26 PM »
Kind of disappointed the rouges knew so little about Christiaan Huygens, I remember him from my physics class, we even did some test to show light behaving as a wave.
side note: we learned to pronounce it like this: how does mr Burns answer the phone ? ahoy hoy, now say Christiaan Ohoy hoy-gens :D

Online Belgarath

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #6 on: Jun 16, 2012, 06:25:45 PM »
Love the Bertrand Russle quotes from Jay, but did you all know that Russel was a JFK conspiracist?


Great show this week, as usual!

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Please don’t try to argue about statements I never made.
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Offline wormguy

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #7 on: Jun 16, 2012, 06:36:41 PM »
Interesting!  I'm not sure which species the WTN was, but probably an odontocete of some kind.  I thought the "some kind of bird" comment was interesting though, because cetaceans make sounds in a fundamentally different manner than we do.  They use the museau de singe (translates as monkey's muzzle) also commonly known as phonic lips.  Not that different from squeezing a balloon nozzle shut to squeak, and not that different from the syrinx used by birds.  Vocal chords are so passe'!

I really hope I'm wrong and it's an auklet or something funky.  The world is always more fun when it surprises you!
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2012, 06:45:18 PM by wormguy »

Offline wormguy

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #8 on: Jun 16, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
Ohhh...should probably put some kind of relevent reference/link:   http://www.spermwhale.org/SpermWhale/spermwhaleorgV1.html  even though the WTN was almost certainly NOT a sperm whale - they have a very limited vocabulary of about 12 sounds, mostly clicks and buzzes compared to the small whistle's and squeaks of the WTN typical of porpoises and dolphins with smaller melons. 

Interesting tidbits: size will be related to the pitch as a function of the size of the melon which toothed whales use to shape the acoustic lobes of their echolocation.  As the melon has a clear relationship to overall body size, one can measure the difference in time from a pirmary sperm whale's click and the echo of that click reverberating in the melon and then derive an estimate of the whale's length.  Here in NZ (mostly around Kaikoura) you can survey whale demographics acoustically and therefore non-invasively.  For you teachers out there, I've done  this successfully in classrooms using the awesome free software 'audacity' and I can recommend it as a secondary or early tertiary exercise.

Offline mddawson

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #9 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:17:28 PM »
WTN: Farting helium  :P
"I only take scientific comments when they are peer-reviewed rather than being published in a small local newspaper or scratched on a toilet wall somewhere."
Professor Peter Brown (2005).

Offline AdamTM

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #10 on: Jun 16, 2012, 07:58:21 PM »
About the email from Germany.

I've been wondering about this same problem for a long time and there should be a study conducted about it.

When i was studying pharmacy in Germany (i didn't graduate, still, 4 years) and we got to homeopathy, our professor essentially said this when he started the lecture:

I have to cover homeopathy and can not comment on its efficacy, so I will just tell you exactly how it works and you make up your own mind.
Then he basically did a mocking James Randi presentation of homeopathy.

After the lecture I went up to him (i wasnt exposed to skepticism at this point) and asked him directly about it.

He told me the policy prevents him to tell me anything beyond the curriculum as a teacher. Then he asked me to follow him outside.
We stepped out of the room and he essentially told me that its a bunch of bullshit, but he made very clear that he is now speaking as a private individual.

So i was pretty lucky to have him as a tutor.

What interests me is how many tutors really do this lecture "by the book" and don't make it obvious that its all essentially magic.

The email suggests that its a lot.

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Offline wormguy

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #11 on: Jun 16, 2012, 10:34:49 PM »
Regarding the pharmacy topic I had an interesting experience last year.  Here the pharamacist typically has a bachelor-level degree.  I went into a pharmacy during a slow period (didn't want to create a negative experience) and while they were filling my prescription I asked about the dominance of non-science-based medicine in the shop.  My hypothesis was that the shop was not commercially viable without selling the snakeoil, but I was concerned that the lab coat, degrees on the wall, and the fact that they are holding the keys to the national drug cabinet filled with deadly stuff gives them a lot of apparent authority.  One pharamacist's response shocked me.  She: "If all I'm doing is filling prescriptions, then why did I go to university? The doctor might as well just hand it to you." Me: "I believe that having someone trained to watch out for bad combinations, inform patients on how to take them, and hold the keys is a worthwhile career in itself." I think she was bitter as a non-doctor.  She was very keen to diagnose so I postulated some symptoms and it was immediately clear that her naturopathic reference material was worthless.  They called in the shop owner (who has 5 pharmacies).  I browsed while waiting for him to arrive.  I personally know a lovely, well-meaning, misguided local naturopath.  She makes GREAT tasting teas (especially elderflower cordial), but they shouldn't be sold as medicines.  I chose one of her products as an example.  The shop owner professed the same belief as the pharmacist so I asked what combination of symptoms would lead him or his staff to recommend to a customer that they buy this herbal medicine.  After some waffling he actually said "Well, say someone is taking antibiotics.  A common side effect is dry mouth.  What are you going to do for dry mouth?  I could recommend this......Or water."  Me: "So you would present the alternatives of purchasing 250 ml of syrup for $14.50 or water?" He: "Maybe, maybe not, but clearly the customer has the choice." 

This experience taught me that pharmacies may stock woo not only for the economic pressure, but for the more personal feelings of inadequacy of its staff.  A desire to live up to the expectations of their perceived 'patients.'  They may desire the mantle of authority and willingly put it on, but after a while doing so they may forget the gulf between what they're doing and what a medical doctor does. 

Offline Belathane

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #12 on: Jun 17, 2012, 07:37:56 AM »
This experience taught me that pharmacies may stock woo not only for the economic pressure, but for the more personal feelings of inadequacy of its staff.  A desire to live up to the expectations of their perceived 'patients.'  They may desire the mantle of authority and willingly put it on, but after a while doing so they may forget the gulf between what they're doing and what a medical doctor does. 


Damn. I always assumed pharmacies stocked homeopathic products purely because of costumer demands. Since the stuff is sold in supermarkets they could miss a lot of income.

When i was studying pharmacy in Germany (i didn't graduate, still, 4 years) and we got to homeopathy, our professor essentially said this when he started the lecture:

I have to cover homeopathy and can not comment on its efficacy, so I will just tell you exactly how it works and you make up your own mind.
Then he basically did a mocking James Randi presentation of homeopathy.

After the lecture I went up to him (i wasnt exposed to skepticism at this point) and asked him directly about it.

He told me the policy prevents him to tell me anything beyond the curriculum as a teacher. Then he asked me to follow him outside.
We stepped out of the room and he essentially told me that its a bunch of bullshit, but he made very clear that he is now speaking as a private individual.


That's shocking! That's just as bad as a biology teacher not being allowed to criticize Intelligent Design. How can you NOT be able to teach about efficacy of a treatment.

On a lighter note.
Kudos to dr Novella for a brave attempt at pronouncing Huygens.  :laugh:
Since english doesn't have the uy/ui sound it's pretty much impossible to get it right. So don't worry. ;)
Although 'HOY-gens' never gets old.
Nor does 'van GO'.
Nor does 'GOO-dah'.

Offline Citizen Skeptic

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #13 on: Jun 17, 2012, 07:45:50 PM »
My comment on the butchering of Ciudad Blanca, I heard, "see you dead, Bianca." :)
Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. -- Bernard Haisch

Offline Marx

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Re: Episode #361
« Reply #14 on: Jun 18, 2012, 05:52:45 AM »
wotsdatnoizi - 5 red pandas spooning.
....but