Poll

What are you going to do with the new rule change?

Leave
3 (5.3%)
Stay but don't opt in
15 (26.3%)
Stay and opt in
39 (68.4%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: The opt-in nature of Explicit  (Read 2800 times)

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Offline andrewclunn

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #15 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:35:36 PM »
I'm cool with the outcome.  I just didn't want a child board as I thought that was ridiculous and would invariably lead to eventually going the no sexual content route.

Offline Beleth

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #16 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:39:33 PM »
Right, this looks like as good a place as any... I wanted to say I completely disagree with the interpretation of the results of the poll. (Id have said so in the thread, but its locked for no apparent reason that I can figure out)

I locked it because I had more to say but I couldn't say it right then. I wanted to continue uninterrupted.

So much for that plan.

Anyway, yeah, I've been backed into the "executive decision" corner. Swell. I hate this corner, to be honest.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #17 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:41:22 PM »
I'm cool with the outcome.  I just didn't want a child board as I thought that was ridiculous and would invariably lead to eventually going the no sexual content route.

in one of the threads on this, someone mentioned there was a 'ghetto' subforum somewhere that has since been deleted. what was that? (was it the feminism one?) (I only know of that and global warming)

it would be interesting to know why it was axed. explicit is a kind of ghetto that has been around much longer, and survives. is there any reason to fear a child board here would be in danger like the former, rather than as safe at the latter?
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Offline Karyn

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #18 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:46:10 PM »
I'm cool with the outcome.  I just didn't want a child board as I thought that was ridiculous and would invariably lead to eventually going the no sexual content route.

in one of the threads on this, someone mentioned there was a 'ghetto' subforum somewhere that has since been deleted. what was that? (was it the feminism one?) (I only know of that and global warming)

it would be interesting to know why it was axed. explicit is a kind of ghetto that has been around much longer, and survives. is there any reason to fear a child board here would be in danger like the former, rather than as safe at the latter?

feminism in skepticism.  It was axed for lack of interest. 
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #19 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:47:42 PM »
e.g., if 20% want no such content, but there shall be such content, then we should at least let them weigh in on what they think the least objectionable place to have it?

We would need to have stats on how many people "want no such content", which currently we dont have. If we had that information I dont think any consolation would necessarily be needed, thered just be enough information to make a good informed decision.

I locked it because I had more to say but I couldn't say it right then. I wanted to continue uninterrupted.

Fair enough. For future situations could you maybe include a note to that effect? I thought the thread being locked must have just meant the thread was over and you thought everything that needed to be said had been said.
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Offline uolj

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #20 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:48:36 PM »
(click to show/hide)
I like this. I'm sorry that you didn't post this earlier. Thanks for sharing now!

Thanks. Although I realize now that it's not much different from what Beleth initially decided, but with the new Private board to make J. Slick and others like him happy.

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #21 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:48:51 PM »
lack of interest. 

what's the threshold for that?

maybe it should've been marketed over on skepchick? could've been a good gateway to get female skeptics to comingle with the community who want more of them.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #22 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:51:51 PM »
We would need to have stats on how many people "want no such content", which currently we dont have. If we had that information I dont think any consolation would necessarily be needed, thered just be enough information to make a good informed decision.

we do: 20%.
the poll asked 'who wants it, who doesn't'. those who want it were split into where they want it, while those who don't want it weren't asked where they least don't want it, which is the maximization I thought you were talking about ('well, you guys lost, but we can at least try to cater to your wishes by putting it where you would least hate to see it')
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Offline Cowtown Cody

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #23 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:58:45 PM »
I disagreed with how the poll was constructed, and I disagree with how it's being interpreted.  But, this is not a democracy and I've said my piece about this anyway.

I'm going to take a break for a few weeks.  There's a good chance I'll stay gone, but I'm not sure yet.

One thing that's become completely clear to me in the last few weeks here is that too many skeptics - too many for my liking anyway - are bad at being diplomatic because they don't think they need to be.  If they're right, then nothing else matters - not how you say something, not how you present yourself to other people, not how many people you offend.  And that principle is more important than anything else.  Any time this type of skeptic gives offense, it must be that the other person has to adjust their mindset, never that the skeptic has to adjust their tone.

I realize that in science, the facts are ideally all that matter.  But to construe that as a license to be tactless is a mistake, because skepticism isn't science and this community isn't the science community.  It's science fandom and advocacy, and advocacy is always political.  Too many skeptics - skeptics who are in a position to understand this - refuse to engage in good diplomacy, or simply fail at it for whatever reason - thoughtlessness, anger, impatience, egotism, defensiveness, lack of skill, whatever.

I hasten to add that this is not because of how the vote here went, although I did very much find the conversation we had about it illuminating, and highlighted what I think is a serious difference of values between myself and many other skeptics regarding how important we think compromise and tact are.  But this is a difference that has actually been becoming more clear to me over the last month or so, and the vote conversation was just the best conversation we've been able to have on the topic in that month.  It was an excellent conversation that put things in very stark contrast for me.

What bothers me more is that "leaders" (ugh) in the skeptic movement are so often bad at diplomacy, even when dealing with one another, and the communities they come from (which are not unified) make endless rationalizations for these failures.  I chalk it up to the same way of thinking: if their guy is right, what's it matter that they're being a tool?  Shouldn't they be, if they really want to shock people into taking the point?

If I were someone on the fence, watching the skeptic community at large over the last several weeks, I'd want nothing to do with it.  Just nothing at all, and I felt the same way over Elevatorgate.  This tactlessness that's so common creates so much unnecessary bickering and resentment, and it absolutely is a barrier to reasonable and intelligent conversation. 

Sure, you could have lots of intelligent conversation (and I absolutely have here, I'm not panning SGUF.  It's a great place for it, and my experience here is what makes part of me want to stay).  But you're also going to have to slog through lots of bickering, and you know that a large portion of the people you talk to are under the impression that their being right is a license for them to be a jerk to you and everyone else they talk to.  And if you don't like it, it's your mind that has to change, not the way they're presenting themselves. 

And here you are, setting yourself up to have to talk to them when you can get science and intelligent conversation without the bickering and jerks just by reading books, listening to podcasts, and above all, staying the hell away from skeptical communities.  They're are at each other's throats constantly, and very often for no good reason other than their own abject failures to conduct themselves toward one another with some class.

Even from the inside, it makes me seriously question if I want to participate in skeptical events or even keep associating with the movement.  Maybe that's melodramatic, but there it is.

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #24 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »
[diplomatic redact].
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2012, 09:02:45 PM by GodSlayer »
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #25 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:06:47 PM »
the poll asked 'who wants it, who doesn't'

No, the poll asks people to vote for which option they think we "should" go with. ie: Which options do you think is best. There might be a bunch of votes in the 20% who voted "No more sexual content at all" who think "Its probably for the best if we just get rid of it, itll save some drama... although if it stayed it wouldnt really bother me either".

Wanting one option doesnt mean you have to not want another option. You can want one option while still being ok with other options.

Myself as an example: I voted for a non opt-in child board because I think it is best. But if we did get rid of it entirely I wouldnt really care except as a philosophical principle - it dont want it gone but it wouldnt really affect my enjoyment, probably. I just dont think its the best option. Nor would I care if its an opt-in child board, I would be almost as fine with that as with the option I voted for.


[...]

I think where I disagree with you on tact isnt that tact cant be useful and worthwhile, but that you seem to make an implication that a tactful answer is always possible. My opinion is that some ideas are simply inherently not "tactful" in the sense that they will provoke a negative reaction regardless of how nicely they are phrased.

Some specific aspects of the current drama I feel fall into that category, while you seem not to.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #26 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:10:08 PM »
No, the poll asks people to vote for which option they think we "should" go with. ie: Which options do you think is best. There might be a bunch of votes in the 20% who voted "No more sexual content at all" who think "Its probably for the best if we just get rid of it, itll save some drama... although if it stayed it wouldnt really bother me either".

maybe we should make a poll asking how people interpreted the 'should'?
my cynical assumption is that people just voted their preference.

do you think some people who post or view in those threads actually voted against their existence in a selfless hope that women who loathe to be reminded of the existence of heterosexual skeptics will be more likely to grace us with their presence?
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #27 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:12:41 PM »
Myself as an example: I voted for a non opt-in child board because I think it is best. But if we did get rid of it entirely I wouldnt really care except as a philosophical principle - it dont want it gone but it wouldnt really affect my enjoyment, probably. I just dont think its the best option. Nor would I care if its an opt-in child board, I would be almost as fine with that as with the option I voted for.

you don't seem to fussed about it. are you assuming others out there are?

maybe a 'how much do you care which option we go with?' poll would be another good one.
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Offline Beleth

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #28 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:14:27 PM »
Just gonna correct one misconception.

And here you are, setting yourself up to have to talk to them when you can get science and intelligent conversation without the bickering and jerks just by reading books, listening to podcasts, and above all, staying the hell away from skeptical communities.  They're are at each other's throats constantly, and very often for no good reason other than their own abject failures to conduct themselves toward one another with some class.

I really don't think that we'll ever see Stephanie Zvan or Ophelia Benson or Natalie or KarenX here (again). They have their own soapboxes now. The folks I want are the Pandas and the AQBs and the Tatyanas that are out there but don't know about us yet, or all they know about us are negative opinions from the freethoughtbloggers about how horrible we are.

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Re: The opt-in nature of Explicit
« Reply #29 on: Jun 19, 2012, 09:16:20 PM »
THERE IS ONLY ONE PANDA HOW DARE YOU.

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