Author Topic: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?  (Read 1758 times)

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #30 on: Jun 29, 2012, 01:27:57 PM »
Sometimes I just like to find an excuse to quote Henry Rollins.

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Offline random poet

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #31 on: Jun 29, 2012, 01:58:01 PM »
All I can do is echo the sentiment that says if there is an afterlife, then this life is just a blip at best and at worse a test, and is either completely devoid of meaning or a cruel experiment, respectively.

If this life is all we get (which it is), then it is meaningful by default. It is up to us to make it worthwhile.
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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #32 on: Jun 29, 2012, 07:55:01 PM »
I never understood why a god giving your life an arbitrary meaning was any better or different than you giving your life a meaning of your choice.  If anything it devalues what our meaning is as now, instead of being individuals striving to make our lives meaningful, we are mindless tools that either work and are put back in place when we're finished being used or don't work and are tossed.

Actually, this.

Sounds like a very "good" reason for people/institutions to introduce an afterlife. If that's your bag, that is.


I see what Eternally Learning said as being a bad reason to introduce an afterlife.  Who wants to be a "mindless tool" in the scenario he describes?
(click to show/hide)

I may have confused the issue by being lazy. Re-reading it now, it looks like I was pro-sheeple.

I was really agreeing with EL by going on the tangent that people (like cult leaders) or institutions (like the RCC) benefit from letting people believe that the meaning that they attribute to their lives is a direct result of a god-type-person or afterlife. It's "good" for the pope/Ted Haggard/Jim Jones that they are "mindless tools".

Agree completely with the rest of your post.

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #33 on: Jul 03, 2012, 08:49:15 AM »
I doubt the sincerity when some of you talk about all of the positive aspects of death being the ultimate end as if you are glad that there is no afterlife.

If scarcity of time alive really enhances life enough to more than compensate for the shorter period of time alive then why wait for an arbitrary age determined by biology? Why not end life when you are 30?

I can see that me in my current state tend to get bored easily, but it would in principle be possible to change me (by changing my brain) to such a degree that I would enjoy reruns of Sex and the City for an eternity.
To what degree this creature would still be me is debatable, but I don't think you would do such a radical transformation for me to be able to enjoy more stimulating and varying activities for a very very long (if not eternity).

Death and our mortality is not something to celebrate, it is a shitty part of reality to accept.
It is still silly to think that you can't enjoy existence just because every silly dream you can imagine isn't being fulfilled, that would leave everyone apathetic.

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #34 on: Jul 03, 2012, 09:29:33 AM »
It is our mortality that makes us appreciate being alive and when put with the belief that there is no afterlife that appreciation increases.

If there was an afterlife, then there would be no difference between this life and that afterlife. Death would not  be celebrated nor  feared nor despised, it wouldn't matter. It would have no meaning at all. It would just be one continuous life. Your enviroment might change, as some people suggest, but your enviroment is not life. Life is experience and the opposite of life is not  death, it is no experience. Now, why would I, at the age of 30 want to willfully end that experience? There are things I want to do, things I want to see, people I want to help who might be struggling with this "life". In other words, there are things I want to experience.

Knowing that I will die eventually, and it's something I most definitely will not avoid, and will no longer be able to experience anything, why should I be in a rush? Knowing that when it does come that this ability will end makes me appreciate the fact I can experience anything at all.

And, "enjoy reruns of Sex and the City for an eternity". Man, you might possibly have just made Hell a real place for me.  :D

A "very very long" time wouldn't even be noticed by someone/thing experiencing eternity btw.

edit: Said better:
“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012, 09:32:09 AM by Rabbit »

Offline IrishJazz

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #35 on: Jul 03, 2012, 09:36:21 AM »
This is crazy.  If there is no afterlife, how do you explain ghosts? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         >:D
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Online Haricots

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #36 on: Jul 03, 2012, 11:20:55 AM »
It is our mortality that makes us appreciate being alive and when put with the belief that there is no afterlife that appreciation increases.
It is living a fulfilling and stimulating life that makes us appreciate life, death puts an arbitrary limitation on how long that can last.

Now, why would I, at the age of 30 want to willfully end that experience? There are things I want to do, things I want to see, people I want to help who might be struggling with this "life". In other words, there are things I want to experience.
My point is that you might feel the same way when you are 90 and on your deathbed, especially if we ignore any age related deterioration of your capacity to enjoy life. (since "getting a new body" is a common idea about the afterlife)
I'm quite confident that you won't think that the impeding end to you and your experiences will be a good thing because it made your life better.

And, "enjoy reruns of Sex and the City for an eternity". Man, you might possibly have just made Hell a real place for me.  :D
That was my intention. :)
My point was that arguments about boredom in a very long or eternal life assumes that you will stay the same.
It is like saying that a drawback of heaven will be that we will get so many children that we soon won't be able to remember even a fraction of them. This is a poor argument because heaven doesn't necessitate the existence of sexual reproduction,a lust for sex or a desire to have children.

One could make the argument that a continuation of your life necessitates that these aspects of your personality must stay the same, but I don't see how these kinds of chances would put an end to you as a person more than behavior modifying drugs does.

A "very very long" time wouldn't even be noticed by someone/thing experiencing eternity btw.
Sure it would.
10 minutes of euphoric bliss is 10 minutes of euphoric bliss.
Three days of extreme torture will be about as unbearable no matter what fraction you expect that these three days will be of your remaining time alive.
Experiencing the moment will always exist and how enjoyable this experience is will always be a primary force in driving our current mood. Reasoning about the past and the future is a sort of metacognition that matter, but it is more of an added layer than the foundation for our experiences and the resulting mood.

“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
To me it doesn't seem as if he is saying that "looking death in the eye" is what makes him see so much love in the world or appreciate the opportunities that life has.
I read it more as "the fact that this awesome life will end still leave us with some awesome life".

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #37 on: Jul 03, 2012, 02:40:32 PM »
Sam on "Ask an Atheist" suggested that he wants everything possible done to keep him alive
I don't think I can agree with him. I need to have some quality of life
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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #38 on: Jul 03, 2012, 02:43:03 PM »
This is crazy.  If there is no afterlife, how do you explain ghosts? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         >:D

They're just psychic projections, duh.

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #39 on: Jul 03, 2012, 02:45:54 PM »
This is crazy.  If there is no afterlife, how do you explain ghosts? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         >:D

They're just psychic projections, duh.

Way to be a part of the conspiracy, rube.

(It's aliens, duh.)
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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #40 on: Jul 04, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »
It is our mortality that makes us appreciate being alive and when put with the belief that there is no afterlife that appreciation increases.
It is living a fulfilling and stimulating life that makes us appreciate life, death puts an arbitrary limitation on how long that can last.

That might make you further appreciate the life you live, but it is the transcience of that ability that gives it any meaning.
If it is only that which makes us appreciate life why do poor people who have no prospects of living a stimulating life cower from someone pointing a gun at them? To me it is the fragility of life that makes you appreciate that you're alive at all.

"Arbitary"?? 

Now, why would I, at the age of 30 want to willfully end that experience? There are things I want to do, things I want to see, people I want to help who might be struggling with this "life". In other words, there are things I want to experience.
My point is that you might feel the same way when you are 90 and on your deathbed, especially if we ignore any age related deterioration of your capacity to enjoy life. (since "getting a new body" is a common idea about the afterlife)
I'm quite confident that you won't think that the impeding end to you and your experiences will be a good thing because it made your life better.

Of course you might, but there is a big difference between dying at 30 and dying at 90. I'm at a loss as to why we ignore any age related deterioration. It is this deterioration that is part of the universe we live in. Entropy always marches on. If, for some reason, I decide to have a deathbed conversion of sorts and wish there was an afterlife, I'll be disgusted with myself. It would run counter to pretty much everything I believe and practice (my experiences) now. It would make my life, this life, utterly, utterly pointless. It would be wishful thinking and grasping at  pseudoscientific bull that I despise. But it wouldn't change the fact that my life is about to end. What I believe in the last 5 minutes of my life can't alter my life in any way.

Honestly, I'm willing to be convinced that there is an afterlife if the evidence is provided but I do not actually want it to be true. I don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. I don't want the universe to work like that. If it is I'll accept it, but it will completely alter the way everybody thinks about life for the very reason that we/the universe/whatever will have removed the concept of death.


And, "enjoy reruns of Sex and the City for an eternity". Man, you might possibly have just made Hell a real place for me.  :D
That was my intention. :)
My point was that arguments about boredom in a very long or eternal life assumes that you will stay the same.
It is like saying that a drawback of heaven will be that we will get so many children that we soon won't be able to remember even a fraction of them. This is a poor argument because heaven doesn't necessitate the existence of sexual reproduction,a lust for sex or a desire to have children.

One could make the argument that a continuation of your life necessitates that these aspects of your personality must stay the same, but I don't see how these kinds of chances would put an end to you as a person more than behavior modifying drugs does.

In an eternal afterlife it wouldn't matter if you stayed the same or not. Eternity is forever. Everything you do you would do again and again and again and again.......

You could do anything you could possibly think of and a whole lot more you possibly couldn't and you still wouldn't be anywhere near the end of it if you did it over and over and over again. In eternity the beginning is as close to the end as the middle is. There is no frame of reference.


A "very very long" time wouldn't even be noticed by someone/thing experiencing eternity btw.
Sure it would.
10 minutes of euphoric bliss is 10 minutes of euphoric bliss.
Three days of extreme torture will be about as unbearable no matter what fraction you expect that these three days will be of your remaining time alive.
Experiencing the moment will always exist and how enjoyable this experience is will always be a primary force in driving our current mood. Reasoning about the past and the future is a sort of metacognition that matter, but it is more of an added layer than the foundation for our experiences and the resulting mood.

I'm not saying you wouldn't be aware of it while you are doing it, just that in the overarching narrative of eternity it wouldn't even be a blip on the landscape. You could be tortured for a billion years and to you, an eternal being, would  forget that it happened at all.

We really don't have any notion whatsoever as to how we'd deal with eternity, but I'm pretty sure that the reasoning and emotions  we think with in a finite time frame would be next to useless.


“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
To me it doesn't seem as if he is saying that "looking death in the eye" is what makes him see so much love in the world or appreciate the opportunities that life has.
I read it more as "the fact that this awesome life will end still leave us with some awesome life".

I don't know where you're pulling that last bit from. I read it as that it is because it is fleeting that it is precious.

OK then try this:

“You have to give up! you have to give up!
You have to realize that someday you will die,
Until you know that, you are useless!”  ;)

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #41 on: Jul 04, 2012, 03:56:51 PM »
It is living a fulfilling and stimulating life that makes us appreciate life, death puts an arbitrary limitation on how long that can last.
That might make you further appreciate the life you live, but it is the transcience of that ability that gives it any meaning.
If it is only that which makes us appreciate life why do poor people who have no prospects of living a stimulating life cower from someone pointing a gun at them?
I don't see your point.
Avoiding harm is a part of our makeup. This behavior was here long before we could know enough about the world to know that death will be the ultimate end.


"Arbitary"?? 
Arbitrary in the sense that the biological processes that limit the length of our life are shaped and "run" with a total indifference to what we want to accomplish during a full lifetime.
There is no good reason to suspect that about 90 years is a good length for our lives. (Or much shorter in some cases.)
Again, age related deterioration is not relevant. So I'm imagining a longer life in the best physical and mental state of our lives.


Of course you might, but there is a big difference between dying at 30 and dying at 90. I'm at a loss as to why we ignore any age related deterioration. It is this deterioration that is part of the universe we live in. Entropy always marches on.
Because we are talking about the concepts of afterlives that often involve us having our mental and physical capacities restored fully.

If, for some reason, I decide to have a deathbed conversion of sorts and wish there was an afterlife, I'll be disgusted with myself. It would run counter to pretty much everything I believe and practice (my experiences) now. It would make my life, this life, utterly, utterly pointless. It would be wishful thinking and grasping at  pseudoscientific bull that I despise. But it wouldn't change the fact that my life is about to end. What I believe in the last 5 minutes of my life can't alter my life in any way.
I have never said that there are any good reasons to even consider the possibility of an afterlife.
I for one have absolutely no doubt that death is the ultimate end to us, but that doesn't mean that I'm glad that this is the case.
It's not that I mourn the loss of an afterlife, the concept of an afterlife is so absurd that it is laughable, but I still think that I could imagine a type of afterlife that would be preferable to a lack of an afterlife.
This is like considering the question of "Would you rather be able to shoot lasers out of your fingertips or fly through deep space?", you don't actually feel sad about the lack of any of these super powers because the though that you would have them is so absurd.

Honestly, I'm willing to be convinced that there is an afterlife if the evidence is provided but I do not actually want it to be true.
As I said, I doubt your sincerity.
I can understand that you wouldn't want a particular sort of afterlife (say an eternity with Jesus in some cheesy heaven), but any afterlife? I can't see how anyone who enjoys being alive would wan't that.


As for the eternity thing: I can't see the point of debating it anymore since it isn't a necessary property of an afterlife. So lets just say that the afterlife is as long as we want or, as in the real life, a period of time that is long enough for us to expect to be able to accomplish a lot of goals but not nearly long enough to make us run out of desirable things to do.

“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
To me it doesn't seem as if he is saying that "looking death in the eye" is what makes him see so much love in the world or appreciate the opportunities that life has.
I read it more as "the fact that this awesome life will end still leave us with some awesome life".

I don't know where you're pulling that last bit from. I read it as that it is because it is fleeting that it is precious.

OK then try this:

“You have to give up! you have to give up!
You have to realize that someday you will die,
Until you know that, you are useless!”  ;)
What do you think that he means with: "The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth" if not "the reality is sufficient"?
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2012, 03:59:41 PM by Haricots »

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #42 on: Jul 04, 2012, 06:08:38 PM »
We are always working towards extending our lives and we wonder why certain people live so much longer. . . .
Somewhere, in the back of our minds, we want to be immortal.
If we would eventually decide "enough is enough" is a good question still

This quote though
"I want more life, Fucker"
From the original release of Blade Runner says it all
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #43 on: Jul 04, 2012, 07:13:40 PM »
I don't see your point.
Avoiding harm is a part of our makeup. This behavior was here long before we could know enough about the world to know that death will be the ultimate end.

Just because something existed before we knew the answer doesnt mean it isnt the answer.

Id argue that the vast majority of our behaviours and feelings were created by evolutionary pressures, and that those evolutionary pressures strongly correlate with survival mechanisms. Whether or not we knew we were evolving to survive doesnt change the fact that we were doing so.

If life were not transient we would not have evolved the feelings and instincts that make us avoid death. Without death we would have no reason to appreciate life, nor any evolved instincts to cause us to want to stay alive (and to release pleasurable chemical signals in response to events that keep us alive).


I also think your mentions of the length of life being an arbitrary limitation are not necessarily relevant. While the fact that life is limited is what causes us to enjoy it, I dont think that the specific length of the life matters. Regardless of whether humans live 100 years or 100 million years, there is still a definite distinction between a life with an end and a life without an end. It is simply the presence of an end that gives the context for us to have positive feelings about life. Infinite life isnt just a "longer" life from which we can infer that longer = better, infinite is fundamentally different to finite.
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Re: Can You Have a Meaningful Life Without an Afterlife?
« Reply #44 on: Jul 04, 2012, 08:19:34 PM »
Just because something existed before we knew the answer doesnt mean it isnt the answer.

Id argue that the vast majority of our behaviours and feelings were created by evolutionary pressures, and that those evolutionary pressures strongly correlate with survival mechanisms. Whether or not we knew we were evolving to survive doesnt change the fact that we were doing so.
I have no issue with that.

If life were not transient we would not have evolved the feelings and instincts that make us avoid death. Without death we would have no reason to appreciate life, nor any evolved instincts to cause us to want to stay alive (and to release pleasurable chemical signals in response to events that keep us alive).
Evolutionary processes would be blind to whether or not there was an afterlife if the afterlife had no effect on this life.
I would not agree with your comments about appreciating life. Much of our emotional life relates to other things than avoiding death.
How our emotional life would have evolved if we were immortal "in this life" might be a fun thought experiment, but I can't see how it could possibly have any relevance to the issue of if any afterlife would be desirable. We are talking about if we, as we are right now, would like to magically continue in any form after we die.
I would, and I doubt that many of you would refuse that option (with the most preferable properties imaginable  ;)) if that option really existed. It doesn't though.

I also think your mentions of the length of life being an arbitrary limitation are not necessarily relevant. While the fact that life is limited is what causes us to enjoy it, I dont think that the specific length of the life matters. Regardless of whether humans live 100 years or 100 million years, there is still a definite distinction between a life with an end and a life without an end. It is simply the presence of an end that gives the context for us to have positive feelings about life. Infinite life isnt just a "longer" life from which we can infer that longer = better, infinite is fundamentally different to finite.
It is relevant since I haven't limited the possible afterlives to those that go on for an eternity.
I'm saying that the current situation, with life ending before we reach a hundred years for most of us and the deterioration that happen to those that have any decent length of life, is far from the best imaginable.
I'm not glad that everyone that believes in any sort of afterlife are wrong, I'm sure that some imagine a world that would be preferable to ours. Death being THE END of us is nothing to celebrate, it is something to accept.

 

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