Topic: Thunderfoot on Misogyny

[superdave]

I think it shows there is a blindspot. 

[Beleth]

What does it say about the movement when the only way we can avoid sounding sexist is by avoid topics related to sex or gender?  This is exactly the sort of thing that convinced me that the sexism problem in skepticism is real.

I think it says nothing about the movement. I think everything it says is actually about human nature.
Which is why I think it needs to be, and remain, its own separate project.

Plus, I don't think that is what he was driving at.  I think he was saying to stop eating your own.

I think that's what he started out to say, with those two "house divided" quotes, but I think his message changed quickly when he got into project management.

We are certainly eating our own here. Question is - who is eating who?
Are the feminists eating those who prioritize other aspects of skepticism above sexual equality and safety?
Or are the feminists merely pointing out that they've been the ones being eaten all this time, and asking the differently-prioritized to stop eating them?

I'm certain you'll get different answers depending on who you ask.
Can it be that both sides feel like victims in this?
Can it be that both sides are victims in this?

We love to categorize people by picking the most extreme example of any group and then painting everyone in the group with that brush.

OMG so true. I think there's a word for that, and I think the word is "bigotry".

[Jeremy's Sea]

What does it say about the movement when the only way we can avoid sounding sexist is by avoid topics related to sex or gender?  This is exactly the sort of thing that convinced me that the sexism problem in skepticism is real.

I think it says nothing about the movement. I think everything it says is actually about human nature.
Which is why I think it needs to be, and remain, its own separate project.

Plus, I don't think that is what he was driving at.  I think he was saying to stop eating your own.

We love to categorize people by picking the most extreme example of any group and then painting everyone in the group with that brush.

That's actually very insightful because people are still tilting against windmills every time sexism in skepticism comes up.
QED

On the whole, I agree with Thunderfoot.

Skepticism is being damaged by people placing a disproportionate amount of effort looking into trivial matters--such as how to police the behavior of individuals in bars. Equality is not trivial, nor is fighting bigotry. Inappropriate behavior should be dealt with when it happens, and it seems that inappropriate behavior has been reasonably dealt with (camera guy) when it's happened in the convention; the fuel of the "skepticism is misogynistic" idea doesn't seem to be actual misogyny, relegating it to triviality.

This is my opinion because nobody has presented any evidence for any significant issues regarding bigotry/equality at TAM or anywhere else in the skeptical community; the issue doesn't seem to deserve the furor that is raging around it.

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

[EhJayArr]

On the whole, I agree with Thunderfoot.

Skepticism is being damaged by people placing a disproportionate amount of effort looking into trivial matters--such as how to police the behavior of individuals in bars. Equality is not trivial, nor is fighting bigotry. Inappropriate behavior should be dealt with when it happens, and it seems that inappropriate behavior has been reasonably dealt with (camera guy) when it's happened in the convention; the fuel of the "skepticism is misogynistic" idea doesn't seem to be actual misogyny, relegating it to triviality.

This is my opinion because nobody has presented any evidence for any significant issues regarding bigotry/equality at TAM or anywhere else in the skeptical community; the issue doesn't seem to deserve the furor that is raging around it.

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

Which important conversations are being shut down?
Which concerns do you think are being ignored?

[Belgarath]

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

Who's ignoring anything?  I would advocate ignoring the extremes on BOTH sides. 

[Skepdad]

I swear if someone makes me read the word "privileged" again I will stab my eyes out with forks ... rusty forks.

[seaotter]

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

Who's ignoring anything?  I would advocate ignoring the extremes on BOTH sides.

But I would rather pour our scourn on both sides.

[Belgarath]

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

Who's ignoring anything?  I would advocate ignoring the extremes on BOTH sides.

But I would rather pour our scourn on both sides.

Yea, that just makes them get their panties in a bunch and then claim 'SEE TOLD YOU!!!'

If you ignore them, the eventually realize they are irrelevant.

[seaotter]

When Thunderfoot and his supporters rail against the most extreme examples, as Seaotter points out, it shuts down the important conversations. Both sides have members guilty of this, the fact that you guys can't just ignore them and actually use them as examples of why every concern needs to be ignored is what makes these threads so galling.

Who's ignoring anything?  I would advocate ignoring the extremes on BOTH sides.

But I would rather pour our scourn on both sides.

Yea, that just makes them get their panties in a bunch and then claim 'SEE TOLD YOU!!!'

If you ignore them, the eventually realize they are irrelevant.

Against my online nature, but yeah you are right.

[Lzrd]

Richard Carrier's take on this.

I found it to be a fine post. Sorry Skepdad, it has the word "privilege" in it.

[EhJayArr]

Richard Carrier's take on this.

I found it to be a fine post. Sorry Skepdad, it has the word "privilege" in it.

That's a very reasonable post. As long as there's room to debate the specifics (such as exactly what policies should/shouldn't be adopted at TAM), I think Carrier's spot-on.

[Skepdad]

Richard Carrier's take on this.

I found it to be a fine post. Sorry Skepdad, it has the word "privilege" in it.

That's Ok ... it was interesting.

I wrote a lot but deleted it because I just figured out that the feminists are nitwits in that they don't understand they were in control all along and they're about to screw it all up.

[pandamonium]

We're in control? Oh thank god.

[Lzrd]

[feminists are nitwits in that they don't understand they were in control all along and they're about to screw it all up.

I must confess to being dumbfounded here. I'm imagining cartoon people going "you wammenz had your go and you SCRAWED IT UP, no more voting or anywhere near equal pay for you!!!111".

The funny thing is, I (and apparently quite a few others) think the same of DJ & JREF.

[pandamonium]

No more voting? Oh thank god.