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Author Topic: Thunderfoot on Misogyny  (Read 4674 times)

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Offline David E.

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #60 on: Jun 26, 2012, 10:39:07 AM »
I think that is the root cause of all this absurdity.  The "I'm right, if you disagree with me, or even question me, you are not only wrong, but an idiot." mentailty of too many of the blog posts and comments.
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Offline Skepdad

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #61 on: Jun 26, 2012, 10:41:31 AM »
[feminists are nitwits in that they don't understand they were in control all along and they're about to screw it all up.

I must confess to being dumbfounded here. I'm imagining cartoon people going "you wammenz had your go and you SCRAWED IT UP, no more voting or anywhere near equal pay for you!!!111".

The funny thing is, I (and apparently quite a few others) think the same of DJ & JREF.

LOL ... no although I admit it was a relatively drunken post.

What I mean is that, at least it seemed to me, that women have had men under their thumbs for quite some time. It wasn't meant to belittle the obvious discrepancies in equality that did and still do exits. I meant it as a joke and it was a lot funnier in my head last night. Sorry.

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #62 on: Jun 26, 2012, 11:12:05 AM »
I think that is the root cause of all this absurdity.  The "I'm right, if you disagree with me, or even question me, you are not only wrong, but an idiot." mentailty of too many of the blog posts and comments.

And they feed on each other.

Hold it. Isn't this basically what DJ said?
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Offline Movius

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #63 on: Jun 26, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
Skeptikerdämmerung. mehr wie Skeptiker-DAME-rung. Bin ich richtig, jungs!?

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #64 on: Jun 26, 2012, 11:32:29 AM »
I think a forum is a poor substitute for a real conversation, but a blog comment thread is orders of magnitude worse.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #65 on: Jun 26, 2012, 12:32:55 PM »
If there is no opposition, why isn't there a policy?

Sometimes I really wonder.  There ARE FREAKING POLICIES.


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Offline David E.

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #66 on: Jun 26, 2012, 12:37:38 PM »
If there is no opposition, why isn't there a policy?

Sometimes I really wonder.  There ARE FREAKING POLICIES.

But they do not create a blanket of perfect safety, so obviously they are not good enough.
Nobody these days holds the written word in such high esteem as police states do.  What statistic allows one to identify the Nations where Literature enjoys true consideration better than the sums appropriated for controlling and suppressing it.
Italo Calvino.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #67 on: Jun 26, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
If there is no opposition, why isn't there a policy?

Sometimes I really wonder.  There ARE FREAKING POLICIES.

But they do not create a blanket of perfect safety, so obviously they are not good enough.

We're having this argument at work right now.  I finally said 'well, if you want PERFECT safety, then just park the planes at the gate, and don't let anyone on them or near them.'


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Offline Karyn

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #68 on: Jun 26, 2012, 01:28:05 PM »
If there is no opposition, why isn't there a policy?

Sometimes I really wonder.  There ARE FREAKING POLICIES.

But they do not create a blanket of perfect safety, so obviously they are not good enough.

We're having this argument at work right now.  I finally said 'well, if you want PERFECT safety, then just park the planes at the gate, and don't let anyone on them or near them.'

Don't leave your house, or even get out of bed.   100% of all accidents and harassments happen in the real world.  And in the virtual world.  You're pretty much screwed.
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Offline Lzrd

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #69 on: Jun 26, 2012, 01:41:19 PM »
A "Don't be a jerk" policy does not protect anyone in the least if the enforcers do not think the act is one of jerkishness. And you're pretty tossing a coin on that one.
And then when someone does get reprimanded for being a jerk, half the community decries OMG HOW IS THAT PUNISHABLE OMG and we're right back where we started.
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Offline David E.

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #70 on: Jun 26, 2012, 02:24:34 PM »
It's good to see you've made uip your mind.
Nobody these days holds the written word in such high esteem as police states do.  What statistic allows one to identify the Nations where Literature enjoys true consideration better than the sums appropriated for controlling and suppressing it.
Italo Calvino.

Offline Lzrd

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #71 on: Jun 26, 2012, 02:46:54 PM »
Elevatorgate is a direct result of that kind of policy. And that went over really well, didn't it?
In Soviet Russia, God created man.
βµπsex = sin(x)

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #72 on: Jun 26, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »
Elevatorgate is a direct result of that kind of policy. And that went over really well, didn't it?

WHAT?  No it wasn't.  The policy could have said just about anything and awkward geeky guy would still have asked Rebecca to his room for coffee.


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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #73 on: Jun 26, 2012, 03:15:58 PM »
Ok, just to start here; this needs to be addressed:

Quote from: Thunderfoot
(and if reading that has just pushed some buttons, I want you to calmly unplug those emotions and put them in a box, then take a deep breath, relax and read the rest of this reasoned argument)… breathing calmly yet? good!, then we can continue….

Regardless of the content of his arguments and whatever validity they do or do not have, did he really expect this to inspire people who disagree with him to take what he has to say seriously?  I wound up agreeing with a lot of what he said and this still bugs the hell out of me.  Especially saying that readers were likely emotional in a conversation about sexism and misogyny...  damn that's dumb.  Anyhoo, onto the content.  I think statements worded like the above and like the statement it was meant to address have caused some distraction over what he was saying so because I love analogies so much, I'm going to first share my interpretation of what his point was in that form:

Let's say that the skeptical movement is the body of a man, TAM and other conferences are a man's nipples (i.e. fun to play with but ultimately not all that important), the movement's goals are the major limbs, the skeptical celebrities are the head, and cases of sexual harassment are mosquito bites. 

(click to show/hide)

Now mosquito bites suck; they are irritating and at the specific point where they occur there are some very uncomfortable results.  Ultimately though, depending on where they are, they are not going to do much harm to the rest of the body or its operation so the response to them should be measured to match the problem.  Since in the cases that are getting the most attention, the mosquitos seem to be biting us on the nipples, he'd likely recommend some anti-itch cream (helping the victim after the fact) and killing the mosquito (punishing harassers) after the fact as well as taking some reasonable preventive measures to hopefully stop it from happening again (like spraying mosquito repellent).

What he sees happening is more like taking a sledgehammer to not only the bite-area but also repeatedly to various parts of the head and body, causing the limbs to not operate correctly and the voice to become weaker and distorted.  He sees the reasoning for doing this being false claims of hundreds of mosquitoes biting the nipples and causing portions of the body to not work properly and in some cases die.  He believes that possibly, just possibly the reason parts of the body are getting damaged and dying is because of the repeated hits from the sledgehammer which happened well after the mosquitoes were killed and the bites treated

Does that sound about right to everyone?

Offline Lzrd

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Re: Thunderfoot on Misogyny
« Reply #74 on: Jun 26, 2012, 03:56:36 PM »
Elevatorgate is a direct result of that kind of policy. And that went over really well, didn't it?

WHAT?  No it wasn't.  The policy could have said just about anything and awkward geeky guy would still have asked Rebecca to his room for coffee.

...seriously, I don't get how this is so difficult to understand.

No words written anywhere will stop you from getting shot by a psychopath. They can have drastic effects on how the aftermath is handled.

If it is stated outright that this is unacceptable behavior, Rebecca does not need to spell it out on youtube. If it needs addressing it can be done within the system, which is exactly what DJ and thunderfoot and the likes want - subtle internal handling instead of public discourse.


Elevatorgate is a prime example of what happens when you don't have a defined internal mechanism for handling this stuff that is clear to everybody. It becomes nothing but a public mess.

Yeah, chances are Rebecca would still have mentioned it. But having that process to refer to would have clarified the situation a whole lot.


I'm honestly, seriously curious if you think having laws is worthwhile? Couldn't America just have had a constitution that said "Don't be a jerk"? Seriously?
In Soviet Russia, God created man.
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