Author Topic: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history  (Read 704 times)

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Offline Rai

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Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:02:16 AM »
Brian Dunning seems to have an interesting take on Middle-Eastern history... :P link

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Throughout the Golden Age, Muslim Conquests had been stretching the hand of Islam over Asia and Africa, even touching Europe. Indeed, al-Ghazali's homeland of Persia was part of the Muslim world because it had been conquered 500 years before his birth. The growing empire began to crumble under its own weight, as geopolitical factionalization and fragmentation took their toll.


This is swell.

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Mongols fought back in the east, stretching Muslim armies thin.


Mongols didn't fight back, they just fought as part of their general drive towards world dominance


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When the Muslim Conquests reached too far, an enraged Pope Urban II declared the First Crusade at the request of the Byzantine emperor in the year 1095,


The First Crusade was definitely not launched because Muslim conquests, as the broader Islamic empire was contracting by that time, with infighting between the Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates and the Reconquista getting into full swing


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and overwhelming armies of Christians and barbarians, knights and peasants, overran and destroyed the great Arab centers.


No great Arab centres were destroyed in the crusades. Baghdad, Damascus, Alexandria, Cairo were practically untouched by the Crusades. The Crusades, from an Islamic point of view, weren't even that important, the fight against the Mongols was a much more pressing matter, as the Crusaders never intended to do anything than taking over a bunch of cities of minor importance. They weren't even a real threat, as the first serious attempt (by Saladin) managed to turn them into a minor annoyance.


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The great irreplaceable libraries were burned, the universities leveled, and the Holy Land fell. Muslims and Jews alike throughout the region were killed by the tens of thousands.


There were no libraries of great importance in the cities occupied by the Crusaders. The most important libraries and centres of learning were in Cairo and Baghdad. The Former survived unscathed and the latter was destroyed by the Mongols in 1258


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For centuries thereafter, Muslim Conquests and Christian Crusades swept back and forth across the land, trading territories.


More like the First Crusade conquering a lot of territories, which were mostly lost a hundred years later. Then the Crusaders continued to launch expeditions that were effortlessly beaten back.

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Europe plunged into the Dark Ages,


WhatwhatWhaaaat? Firstly, the concept of the Dark Ages is generally rejected by historians. Secondly, it definitely didn't start anywhere near the time of the crusades and, if we use it as a synonym for the Early Middle Ages, it ended by then.

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and Muslims saw the death of their Golden Age. But as the skies began to clear in the middle of the second millennium, Europe entered its Renaissance, while the Arab-Islamic world did not.


This is also swell.

I don't get why Dunning wants to drag the Crusades into the debate, especially in such a sloppily researched way.

But of course I might be wrong, so feel free correct me.
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Offline Lzrd

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #1 on: Jun 27, 2012, 08:08:42 AM »
You might want to contact him directly, I am under the assumption that he welcomes valid criticism. :)

It was my impression as well that the crusades didn't really accomplish all that much, though.
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Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #2 on: Jun 27, 2012, 09:04:46 AM »
You might want to contact him directly, I am under the assumption that he welcomes valid criticism. :)

He usually ignores valid criticism and just focuses on silly criticism from wackos that he can make fun of.  However, he does do corrections shows from time to time in which he corrects his less embarrassing mistakes.  I'm sure he's cover a few of the mistakes he made in this episode in a future corrections ep, and probably make some excuses for others, and then focus most of the time on mocking the people who are calling him anti-Muslim.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #3 on: Jun 27, 2012, 06:16:36 PM »
Yeah, I've been a bit hesitant to listen to that episode. The part quoted about about the "Dark Ages" is totally cringe-worthy, though. I'm not an historian and even I know that the "Dark Ages" is a mythological time that exists only in medieval fantasy books.

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Offline David E.

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #4 on: Jun 27, 2012, 06:40:22 PM »
If only Brian listened to Hardcore History. 
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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #5 on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »
If only Brian listened to Hardcore History.
Hey, that's an idea. Maybe we should mount a campaign to Pharyngulize the comments section of this episode with links to the Hardcore History episodes. >:D

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Offline David E.

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #6 on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:15:04 PM »
If only Brian listened to Hardcore History.
Hey, that's an idea. Maybe we should mount a campaign to Pharyngulize the comments section of this episode with links to the Hardcore History episodes. >:D

Well there is a ""Dark Ages"" episode  :D
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #7 on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:23:35 PM »
If only Brian listened to Hardcore History.
Hey, that's an idea. Maybe we should mount a campaign to Pharyngulize the comments section of this episode with links to the Hardcore History episodes. >:D

Well there is a ""Dark Ages"" episode  :D
I was saying we should link to the Hardcore History episode about the "Dark Ages" in the Skeptoid comments section for Dunning's Islamic Science episode. And get a bunch of people to do it, just to be annoying. ;D

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #8 on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »
Yeah, I've been a bit hesitant to listen to that episode. The part quoted about about the "Dark Ages" is totally cringe-worthy, though. I'm not an historian and even I know that the "Dark Ages" is a mythological time that exists only in medieval fantasy books.

Well... kinda. There is a period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the First Crusade that is frequently referred to as the "dark ages" but it was called that more because for quite a while there was very little documentary history of the period. It was prior to the widespread adoption of Christianity and the subsequent proliferation of monks. But we have since found that the pre-Christian civilisations of Europe practised burial of grave goods, so we now have a lot of artefacts from the period.
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #9 on: Jun 27, 2012, 07:54:58 PM »
Yeah, I've been a bit hesitant to listen to that episode. The part quoted about about the "Dark Ages" is totally cringe-worthy, though. I'm not an historian and even I know that the "Dark Ages" is a mythological time that exists only in medieval fantasy books.

Well... kinda. There is a period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the First Crusade that is frequently referred to as the "dark ages" but it was called that more because for quite a while there was very little documentary history of the period. It was prior to the widespread adoption of Christianity and the subsequent proliferation of monks. But we have since found that the pre-Christian civilisations of Europe practised burial of grave goods, so we now have a lot of artefacts from the period.
I know all that--I was referring to the common idea that the Dark Ages were a period of no advancement of human knowledge. That's not technically true. Classical ideas weren't, to my knowledge, unknown to the Middle Ages, they were just shunned for the more acceptable Christian ideals. I've mostly learned the history of this period through the art of the time. If you look at the art the Middle Ages produced, it lines up with the Christian view at the time of 'this life isn't important/iconography bad/spiritual life more important'. It's not that Europe suddenly forgot all about perspective, it's just that their cultural values changed dramatically.

And you can see a change in cultural values even in the realism of Greece and Rome--hell, even during different eras of Greece or Rome. Romans are famous for their ultra-realistic busts of emperors--they are generally older, stern, patriarchal. Whereas the realism of Greece reflected more their emphasis on youth as beauty. The art of the Middle Ages was more about allegory--realistic art was seen as decadent, sinful. The art was meant to teach lessons about morality and Godliness, not portray reality accurately. It wasn't a "step back", it was a shift of values. Just like abstract art of the early twentieth century wasn't a step-back for art, merely a different emphasis on what is valued in art.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #10 on: Jun 27, 2012, 08:08:27 PM »
Yeah, I've been a bit hesitant to listen to that episode. The part quoted about about the "Dark Ages" is totally cringe-worthy, though. I'm not an historian and even I know that the "Dark Ages" is a mythological time that exists only in medieval fantasy books.

Well... kinda. There is a period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the First Crusade that is frequently referred to as the "dark ages" but it was called that more because for quite a while there was very little documentary history of the period. It was prior to the widespread adoption of Christianity and the subsequent proliferation of monks. But we have since found that the pre-Christian civilisations of Europe practised burial of grave goods, so we now have a lot of artefacts from the period.
I know all that--I was referring to the common idea that the Dark Ages were a period of no advancement of human knowledge. That's not technically true. Classical ideas weren't, to my knowledge, unknown to the Middle Ages, they were just shunned for the more acceptable Christian ideals.

Yes. It's a shame that Brian mistook the Dark Ages for the post-Crusades period. Depending on your definition, the Crusades didn't stop until almost into the Renaissance.
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #11 on: Jun 27, 2012, 08:28:03 PM »
Yeah, I'm not so familiar with the Crusades. Aren't the Middle/Dark Ages held to be from about the end of the Roman Empire to right before the Italian Renaissance? iirc, it's a pretty murky line, and depends on how you define things.

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #12 on: Jun 27, 2012, 08:53:27 PM »
Yeah, I'm not so familiar with the Crusades. Aren't the Middle/Dark Ages held to be from about the end of the Roman Empire to right before the Italian Renaissance? iirc, it's a pretty murky line, and depends on how you define things.

I am not an expert, but my medieval reenactment club focuses on the dark ages. We consider it to be from the withdrawal of Roman troops from Britain in ~450ad to the Battle of Hastings in 1066. After that you get into the Early Medieval, High Medieval and Renaissance periods, but I don't have dates in my head for where the cutoffs are. The First Crusade was in 1090.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #13 on: Jun 28, 2012, 03:40:56 AM »
Yeah, I've been a bit hesitant to listen to that episode. The part quoted about about the "Dark Ages" is totally cringe-worthy, though. I'm not an historian and even I know that the "Dark Ages" is a mythological time that exists only in medieval fantasy books.


Well... kinda. There is a period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the First Crusade that is frequently referred to as the "dark ages" but it was called that more because for quite a while there was very little documentary history of the period. It was prior to the widespread adoption of Christianity and the subsequent proliferation of monks. But we have since found that the pre-Christian civilisations of Europe practised burial of grave goods, so we now have a lot of artefacts from the period.


Mind you, what you're referring to is a roughtly 100 year period. By 600, Christianity was all over the British Isles and the Celtic Christian monastic orders were all over Europe. The Hiberno-Scottish Mission, which founded abbeys all over continental Europe already started in 563. While some areas, especially Scandinavia, resisted Christianity until the 12th century, the vast majority of Europe was Christian not long after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

I know all that--I was referring to the common idea that the Dark Ages were a period of no advancement of human knowledge. That's not technically true. Classical ideas weren't, to my knowledge, unknown to the Middle Ages, they were just shunned for the more acceptable Christian ideals. I've mostly learned the history of this period through the art of the time. If you look at the art the Middle Ages produced, it lines up with the Christian view at the time of 'this life isn't important/iconography bad/spiritual life more important'. It's not that Europe suddenly forgot all about perspective, it's just that their cultural values changed dramatically.


As far as I know, most Classical knowledge was lost for the Europeans. the Library of Alexandria was long gone and most of the Classical texts were only known in Arabic, which not many people spoke in Europe. The first non-Arabic version of the Almagest, for example, was only made in the 12th century. The Renaissance was partially kicked off by the rediscovery of Classical knowledge through Arabic sources.

Of course, there was a lot of close-mindedness. Europeans were hesitant to embrace the concept of zero because they first thought it was some kind of evil Muslim scheme. Christianity was a restraining factor, but not as big as people think as the Church didn't yet manage to completely invade the private sphere, that only really started around the Reformation, that's when the real religious zealotry started up. Medieval Christianity was a relatively lax and hectic thing. I mean, for example, in the 12th century, a French village decided to start venerating St. Guinefort, who just happened to be a dog. I have seen a medieval bust of the Virgin Mary, which had a carved mountain scenery on its backside, including a fellow who's merrily taking a dump at the base of a tree. On the back of the Virigin Mary. Pooping. And then there's the inclusion of pagan nature spirits in every single English church, without even attempting to Christianise them.

I think the real reason for the lack of science was, firstly the lack of knowledge about past progress, and secondly of a socio-economical nature. Generally speaking, rich countries excel in science and there weren't many of them in Europe. There were rich kings and nobles, but their puny little kingdoms did not have enough wealthy people with time on their hand to immerse themselves into scientific pursuits.

Also, mind you, the European states descended from the Roman Empire, which never really cared about non-practical sciences anyway. 

And you can see a change in cultural values even in the realism of Greece and Rome--hell, even during different eras of Greece or Rome. Romans are famous for their ultra-realistic busts of emperors--they are generally older, stern, patriarchal. Whereas the realism of Greece reflected more their emphasis on youth as beauty. The art of the Middle Ages was more about allegory--realistic art was seen as decadent, sinful. The art was meant to teach lessons about morality and Godliness, not portray reality accurately. It wasn't a "step back", it was a shift of values. Just like abstract art of the early twentieth century wasn't a step-back for art, merely a different emphasis on what is valued in art.


I wouldn't say that realistic art was frowned upon, there's plenty of it in the Medieval period, for example look at this 11th century reliquiary:



Sensibilities changed, that's for sure, and the most realistic art genre, the monumental statues went out of fashion, but not because people said that they were ungodly.

Also, the vast majority of Greek and Roman art was also deeply symbolic and religious. It's just that we're so removed from that period that it's not obvious at first.
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Re: Skeptoid on Islamic Science vs history
« Reply #14 on: Jun 28, 2012, 03:13:43 PM »
Yeah, but even that death mask (?) is highly stylized--huge eyes, the beard and hair made of parallel lines. Incredibly symmetrical in form.
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Also, the vast majority of Greek and Roman art was also deeply symbolic and religious. It's just that we're so removed from that period that it's not obvious at first.
I never said it wasn't. I said that cultural values (religious values included) changed from the end of the Roman Empire onward. Art is driven by society. You can't divorce the two.

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