Author Topic: Episode #367  (Read 3633 times)

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Offline esterin

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #60 on: Aug 07, 2012, 03:11:33 AM »
I do not think it is like biofuel, I mean, it is like biofuel and like any other production that uses resources, at least it is not pointless like many many other stuff.

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #61 on: Aug 07, 2012, 10:38:36 AM »
I meant it was like biofuel in that it can take a useless resource and turn it to a useful one, and that for the most part we are using it to take an end product ex corn and turn it into another end product ex meat or fuel, instead.
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Offline Daws

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #62 on: Aug 07, 2012, 10:30:27 PM »
Quote
What about morals, and ecology, and sustainability? If everyone were to eat only animal products (providing people in developing coiuntries could afford it, which they naturally wouldn't by far), we'd need several extra planets and thousands of times extra water. It takes something like 15,000 liters of water to produce one kilogram of beef. It is already a problem that Western people are stuffing themselves with meat, while more than one billion people are starving and lack - exactly - proteins.


See I was wondering about this, if it really held up, though I was thinking in terms of land use.... Anyway they always say you can feed more per acre than you can with livestock. But what about say with free range vs penned up live stock... I don't mean the space the animal takes up but ecologically how bad is it in comparison?

If you just have the animal grazing on field grass and not having anything grown just for the cattle, I think that might actually be better environmentally. For with vegetables you're using fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, all with runoff problems...then there's the gas used driving around making rounds with the fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides... There's a lot of work and energy going into it. What gets used on an old cowboy style cattle drive, firewood?

And the land use in that case isn't "used" in the same sense as a garden is, the grazing animal eats a bit of the grass, moves on, in the meantime plenty is still growing and sequestering CO2. Now it's different if you're cutting down forest for the land, but if you're just using pre-existing plains there doesn't seem to be much harm at all.

So anyway, I'm just thinking its not so cut and dry with how much energy, water, land, etc. that meat takes. It really has to depend on the practices involved, and where you're getting it from.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #63 on: Aug 07, 2012, 11:33:45 PM »
the grazing animal eats a bit of the grass, moves on, in the meantime plenty is still growing and sequestering CO2.

while the stock farts methane :)
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Offline esterin

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #64 on: Aug 08, 2012, 03:32:53 AM »
while the stock farts methane :)

What was the cost in GHG of this comment?;)

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #65 on: Aug 08, 2012, 04:04:51 AM »
while the stock farts methane :)

What was the cost in GHG of this comment?;)

dunno, but you can deduct it from my 'non-spawning human' credit line.
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Offline Daws

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #66 on: Aug 08, 2012, 05:31:05 AM »
the grazing animal eats a bit of the grass, moves on, in the meantime plenty is still growing and sequestering CO2.

while the stock farts methane :)

I thought about that, however two things to keep in mind: one, methane will come from any decaying vegetation (note that hydroelectric dams can produce more methane than conventional plants, whether natural gas or coal I can't remember ATM), cows eating it simply hurry and concentrate the process...of which that concentrated result comes out their butt :P Now the difference may be that by eating the grass they cause it (the part bit off, that is) to die sooner and more often as it grows back and gets eaten again. And of course if it's not so free range we basically are gathering and moving mounds of vegetation to the cow...which normally, a big rotting pile would be stinky too.

And secondly, methane's cycle is considerably faster than CO2, (8.4 years vs. over 100) and so doesn't have as much a problem piling up and having an accumulative effect. There is some problem, (especially given the initial effect is 25 times CO2s) but if I had to pick between a methane problem or a CO2 problem, I'd pick methane.

Of course people already say I have a methane problem :P

But anyway, to reiterate, methane comes from all rotting or digested vegetation (what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?), so to pick cows out of the mix would be, well a bit biased. I suspect the billions of us produce quite a bit too ;)
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #67 on: Aug 08, 2012, 05:38:30 AM »
(what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?)

sorry to fixate on an off the cuff remark, but are the chemical reactions always the same? I'd have thought what my acids do to a banana differ from what air does.
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Offline Pernille

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #68 on: Aug 08, 2012, 12:04:11 PM »

But anyway, to reiterate, methane comes from all rotting or digested vegetation (what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?), so to pick cows out of the mix would be, well a bit biased. I suspect the billions of us produce quite a bit too ;)
If you mean that humans produce methane, the answer is no. We produce lots of CO2 when vi burn energy, but methane is specific to ruminants - cows, sheep, etc. It's made when they digest grass, a process which in part involves certain bacteria.

Methane is also produced when biologic material rot, but plants decaying in a field don't, as far as I know.

Some environmentalists say we should eat less beef and mutton, and more pork and chicken.
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Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #69 on: Aug 08, 2012, 03:55:07 PM »

But anyway, to reiterate, methane comes from all rotting or digested vegetation (what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?), so to pick cows out of the mix would be, well a bit biased. I suspect the billions of us produce quite a bit too ;)
If you mean that humans produce methane, the answer is no. We produce lots of CO2 when vi burn energy, but methane is specific to ruminants - cows, sheep, etc. It's made when they digest grass, a process which in part involves certain bacteria.

Methane is also produced when biologic material rot, but plants decaying in a field don't, as far as I know.

Some environmentalists say we should eat less beef and mutton, and more pork and chicken.

Sorry, but I think this is wrong in almost every particular. Methane is produced by animal digestion, whether ruminant or otherwise. The difference is that humans etc., produce a relatively modest amount of methane as farts (and it's not the methane that smells, it's odourless), whereas ruminants produce quite a lot but it's belched up during the chewing process, not released as massive farts, however much the schoolboy humour of people reporting this would like it to be so.

Rotting of plants separate from an animal certainly does produce methane, though more so in anaerobic conditions (e.g. swamps) than in open fields, as far as I know. I think aerobic digestion results in more carbon dioxide, but I'm prepared to be corrected on that.

Either way, plants rot sooner or later to produce greenhouse gases.

The main problem with beef relative to other meats is the massive amount of fossil fuel energy expended to produce a given mass of meat: something like 20 calories of fossil energy for every calorie of food value (in effect we're eating 95% oil), and that's only in production (not including transport, shops, packaging, cooking and waste processing). Chicken is a lot more efficient. Pork and lamb/mutton I'm not sure about.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #70 on: Aug 08, 2012, 07:12:05 PM »
(what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?)

sorry to fixate on an off the cuff remark, but are the chemical reactions always the same? I'd have thought what my acids do to a banana differ from what air does.

Air doesn't do it - bacteria does it.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #71 on: Aug 08, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »
(what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?)

sorry to fixate on an off the cuff remark, but are the chemical reactions always the same? I'd have thought what my acids do to a banana differ from what air does.

Air doesn't do it - bacteria does it.

that's just a theory. opinions are like assholes. ;)
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Offline whatsinausername

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #72 on: Aug 08, 2012, 09:10:40 PM »
while the stock farts methane :)

What was the cost in GHG of this comment?;)

dunno, but you can deduct it from my 'non-spawning human' credit line.

This made me think... what is the water/calorie cost of the lifecycle of a human being? with all their new coal plants maybe china is doing more than the rest of the world to reduce emissions?

Offline Daws

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #73 on: Aug 09, 2012, 02:58:52 AM »

But anyway, to reiterate, methane comes from all rotting or digested vegetation (what is rot anyway but microscopic digesting?), so to pick cows out of the mix would be, well a bit biased. I suspect the billions of us produce quite a bit too ;)
If you mean that humans produce methane, the answer is no. We produce lots of CO2 when vi burn energy, but methane is specific to ruminants - cows, sheep, etc. It's made when they digest grass, a process which in part involves certain bacteria.

Methane is also produced when biologic material rot, but plants decaying in a field don't, as far as I know.

Some environmentalists say we should eat less beef and mutton, and more pork and chicken.

Sorry, but I think this is wrong in almost every particular. Methane is produced by animal digestion, whether ruminant or otherwise. The difference is that humans etc., produce a relatively modest amount of methane as farts (and it's not the methane that smells, it's odourless), whereas ruminants produce quite a lot but it's belched up during the chewing process, not released as massive farts, however much the schoolboy humour of people reporting this would like it to be so.

Rotting of plants separate from an animal certainly does produce methane, though more so in anaerobic conditions (e.g. swamps) than in open fields, as far as I know. I think aerobic digestion results in more carbon dioxide, but I'm prepared to be corrected on that.

Either way, plants rot sooner or later to produce greenhouse gases.

The main problem with beef relative to other meats is the massive amount of fossil fuel energy expended to produce a given mass of meat: something like 20 calories of fossil energy for every calorie of food value (in effect we're eating 95% oil), and that's only in production (not including transport, shops, packaging, cooking and waste processing). Chicken is a lot more efficient. Pork and lamb/mutton I'm not sure about.


I imagine it also has to do with how much veges are in an animal's diet, grazers diets are all veges, green leafed ones at that of course...(dare I then postulate that vegetarians produce more methane than usual?). Any thanks for answering the above for me. I know we'd probably have to differ to an organic chemist or microbiologist to be sure, but that sounds right as is.
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Offline Daws

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Re: Episode #367
« Reply #74 on: Aug 09, 2012, 07:09:20 AM »
So not being able to leave well enough alone, I found several relevant pages on the methane topic, (some mentioning rice as a big contributor to my surprise) not least of all was this:

http://oceanlink.island.net/ONews/ONews7/methane.html

Of course there is the question of which of these have changed over time, certainly the natural gas and oil sources have, and there's the ice sheet melting which I'm not sure is included in the charts...meh.

Any way that led me to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_fermentation

As pernille said, indeed:
Quote
Ruminant animals are those that have a rumen. A rumen is a special stomach found in cows, sheep, and water buffalo that enables them to eat tough plants and grains that monogastric animals, such as humans, dogs, and cats, cannot digest.

Enteric fermentation occurs when methane (CH4) is produced in the rumen as microbial fermentation takes place. Over 200 species of microorganisms are present in the rumen, although only about 10% of these play an important role in digestion. Most of the CH4 byproduct is belched by the animal, however, a small percentage of CH4 is also produced in the large intestine and passed out as flatulence.


However we all do seem to produce some methane, as this study seems to suggest:
http://www.vacadsci.org/vjsArchives/v45/45-4/45-249.pdf]
[url]http://www.vacadsci.org/vjsArchives/v45/45-4/45-249.pdf
[/url]

So both seem a bit right.

But I still wonder/ed if this might simply be displacing the methane that would eventually result from vegetation rot. However further along the Enteric fermentation  page I came across this which seemed to change things a bit...

Quote
Methane emissions are an important contribution to global greenhouse gas emissions. The IPCC reports that methane is more than twenty times as effective as CO2 at trapping heat in the atmosphere. In Australia ruminant animals account for over half of their green house gas contribution from methane.[1] Australia has implemented a voluntary immunization program for cattle in order to help reduce flatulence-produced CH4.

>>>>However, in Australia there are ruminant of the Macropodidae family that are able to produce 80% less methane than cows.<<<

This is because the gut microbiota of Macropodids, rumen and others parts of their digestive system, is dominated by bacteria of the Succinivibrionaceae family. These bacteria are able to produce succinate as a final product of the lignocelluloses degradation, producing small amounts of methane as end product. Its special metabolic route allows to utilize others proton acceptors avoiding the formation of methane.


Quote
scientists believe that, with the aid of microbial engineering, the use of microbioma to modify natural or anthropogenic processes, we could change the microbiota composition of the rumen of strong methane producers, emulating the Macropodidae microbiota.


Now I'm wondering if we can go further and genetically engineer livestock to produce no methane whatsoever? In which case regardless of the question if the livestock displace methane rather than produce a net increase, even in the worst circumstances, we could in the future, with engineering see meat surpassing vegetable crops in their environmental friendliness. That is if we could free range the whole needed supply....which part of me unfortunately doubts :(
« Last Edit: Aug 09, 2012, 07:35:27 AM by Daws »
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