Topic: The Coming Atheist Demographic Tide

[IrishJazz]

But I don't need a discussion of the background and under-lying reasons for the Inquisition to say that for an organisation claiming to be the divinely inspired beacon of moral authority that's a pretty terrible thing to have perpetrated. Of course it's understandable if you view it as a organisation of men engaged in political struggles for power, in a time when that sort of behaviour was relatively common-place on the part of the powerful.

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

[Neon Genesis]

Citation, please.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/01/internationaleducationnews.religion

In an interview with the Guardian, he said: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

But I don't need a discussion of the background and under-lying reasons for the Inquisition to say that for an organisation claiming to be the divinely inspired beacon of moral authority that's a pretty terrible thing to have perpetrated. Of course it's understandable if you view it as a organisation of men engaged in political struggles for power, in a time when that sort of behaviour was relatively common-place on the part of the powerful.

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

It matters because the Catholic church claims to be God's representative on Earth, and thus should be at least noticeably better than non-religious organisations.

[Rabbit]

Citation, please.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/01/internationaleducationnews.religion

In an interview with the Guardian, he said: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."

'Monopolise' is a pretty strong word to use there, and maybe he meant it, but I think I get what he means. I don't think he sees them as "sinister", rather that atheists should be following the example they set.

[IrishJazz]

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

It matters because the Catholic church claims to be God's representative on Earth, and thus should be at least noticeably better than non-religious organisations.
[/quote]

Every organization that claims superior moral authority should be morally superior.  This applies as much to the communists who starved millions of people in the name of social and economic justice as it does to the celibates in the funny hats who claim to be enforcing the will of a creator who is transcendentally powerful yet remarkably sensitive to disrespect.

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

It matters because the Catholic church claims to be God's representative on Earth, and thus should be at least noticeably better than non-religious organisations.

Every organization that claims superior moral authority should be morally superior.  This applies as much to the communists who starved millions of people in the name of social and economic justice as it does to the celibates in the funny hats who claim to be enforcing the will of a creator who is transcendentally powerful yet remarkably sensitive to disrespect.

I don't understand how this contradicts anything I said?

[Anders]

Citation, please.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/01/internationaleducationnews.religion

In an interview with the Guardian, he said: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."

Where does he talk of them sinisterly? And of course he thinks the world would be a better place (so do I) - a world where politicians rule more by real facts and less by Bronze Age myths can hardly be worse, can it? I don't see what's so offensive about the quote.

[Johnny Slick]

Yeah, that reminded me more of that quote about Muslim kids from Jesus Camp than The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I get that the history of Judaism is replete with real persecution but that doesn't mean persecution is present whenever the name is invoked.

[Neon Genesis]

Where does he talk of them sinisterly? And of course he thinks the world would be a better place (so do I) - a world where politicians rule more by real facts and less by Bronze Age myths can hardly be worse, can it? I don't see what's so offensive about the quote.

The problem is with the historical baggage associated with the phrase "Jewish lobby."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby

The B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission of Australia states in its description, "It is important to recognise that lobbies are natural parts of pluralist, democratic societies such as Australia. Lobbying constitutes a mainstream method of influencing government policy, as a means of enhancing representative government. As such, just as other communities and interest groups have lobbies, there is a ‘Jewish lobby’ – an unwieldy group of individuals and organisations devoted to supporting the needs and interests of the Jewish community. This Jewish lobby is a player in representative government, and its very existence confirms the ordinary place Jews have within Australian politics. The assumption, however, that Jews have a disproportionate power and influence over decision making is what transforms a descriptive reality about politics to an antisemitic argument about Jewish power."

[IrishJazz]

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

It matters because the Catholic church claims to be God's representative on Earth, and thus should be at least noticeably better than non-religious organisations.

Every organization that claims superior moral authority should be morally superior.  This applies as much to the communists who starved millions of people in the name of social and economic justice as it does to the celibates in the funny hats who claim to be enforcing the will of a creator who is transcendentally powerful yet remarkably sensitive to disrespect.

I don't understand how this contradicts anything I said?

Your point was that a religious organization was required to be noticeably better than non-religious ones.  I disagree. I think the same same standards to any organization or movement if it is claiming to act in the name of the greater good or a higher morality.

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

Almost every large scale horrible act committed by mankind has been done in the name of a higher morality, honor, or necessity. It does not matter much whichever god or philosophy the perpetrators cited.

It matters because the Catholic church claims to be God's representative on Earth, and thus should be at least noticeably better than non-religious organisations.

Every organization that claims superior moral authority should be morally superior.  This applies as much to the communists who starved millions of people in the name of social and economic justice as it does to the celibates in the funny hats who claim to be enforcing the will of a creator who is transcendentally powerful yet remarkably sensitive to disrespect.

I don't understand how this contradicts anything I said?

Your point was that a religious organization was required to be noticeably better than non-religious ones.  I disagree. I think the same same standards to any organization or movement if it is claiming to act in the name of the greater good or a higher morality.

Hmm, well that actually would make an interesting discussion in and of itself, but I was really trying to justify using the Inquisition as evidence against the divinity of the Church without being an expert on the reasons, methods and scriptural justifications for them. And it looks like you agree?

[IrishJazz]

Hmm, well that actually would make an interesting discussion in and of itself, but I was really trying to justify using the Inquisition as evidence against the divinity of the Church without being an expert on the reasons, methods and scriptural justifications for them. And it looks like you agree?

Of course we agree.  I am just objecting to the specific formulation of your statement.

There is no guidance in the New Testament about the proper role of civil and church authorities in suppressing dissenting opinion.  Paul railed against it, but then again his adversaries included St. Peter and James, the brother of Jesus.  Jesus himself was on the wrong side of the only religious authorities he knew, and thought the world was ending in any case.  The Inquisition, aka the Counter-Reformation, was based on novel ideas and traditional xenophobia.  (The Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 as part of a spiritual cleansing.

In any case, the Church can still be divine even if a subset of its servants err.  IMHO the reason the church is not the worldly incarnation of the religion based on Jesus is that everything about it is the exact opposite of his message.  It is about faith, not acts. Rather than preparing for the coming Kingdom of God it sees itself as that Kingdom (actually kind of reasonable since Jesus was dead wrong about the apocalypse) and where he envisioned a new order where every meal was a holy mean they created a patriarchy whose ability to perform a magic trick depends on some sort of spiritual cooties (the laying on of hands) and the voluntary adoption of the sexually deviant practice of celibacy.  They could have fed kittens and cooed at babies rather than burning heretics and their religion would still be bullshit.   

Knowing the details does allow a more sophisticated attack on the foundations of the religion.  Beat up on just the Catholics and you have Pat Robertson cheering you on.

[Neon Genesis]

It also seems like pointing to the Inquisition and witch trials would be the easiest barbarisms of organized religion for Christians to respond to.  All they have to do is point to the love your neighbor and turn the other cheek stuff in the gospels and say those weren't real Christians doing the Inquisition.