Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 26387 times)

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Offline PB67

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2015, 09:07:00 AM »

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Phinney showed this in studies on cyclists in the 19

Citation required.

The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric res... - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776

"These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level."



Quote
Capacity for moderate exercise in obese subjects after adaptation t... - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7000826

"The low RQ and the fact that blood glucose and muscle glycogen were maintained during exhausting exercise after 6 wk of a PSF suggest that prolonged ketosis results in an adaptation, after which lipid becomes the major metabolic fuel, and net carbohydrate utilization is markedly reduced during moderate but ultimately exhausting exercise."


I guess you don't understand the difference between "not compromised" and "enhanced".

Look at the data.

I have, have you?

My understanding (admittedly loose, interest in the endurance side of things is perfunctory) is that even though submaximal efforts are okay under keto, it's still not ideal because sprinting performance is impaired—the implication being that occasional sprinting is still part of endurance sports.

This is what the data shows.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2015, 09:51:29 AM »

Quote
Phinney showed this in studies on cyclists in the 19

Citation required.

The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric res... - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776

"These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level."



Quote
Capacity for moderate exercise in obese subjects after adaptation t... - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7000826

"The low RQ and the fact that blood glucose and muscle glycogen were maintained during exhausting exercise after 6 wk of a PSF suggest that prolonged ketosis results in an adaptation, after which lipid becomes the major metabolic fuel, and net carbohydrate utilization is markedly reduced during moderate but ultimately exhausting exercise."


I guess you don't understand the difference between "not compromised" and "enhanced".

Look at the data.

I have, have you?

My understanding (admittedly loose, interest in the endurance side of things is perfunctory) is that even though submaximal efforts are okay under keto, it's still not ideal because sprinting performance is impaired—the implication being that occasional sprinting is still part of endurance sports.

This is what the data shows.

First, marathon runners and endurance athletes generally don't sprint, low carb or not. Second, once you've adapted to a ketogenic diet you continue to store glucagon and it is available for short bursts of sprinting or heavy lifting.

There are also endurance athletes on very strict LCHF diets who excel at marathons, triathlons and iron man events.

It is true that a strict LCHF diet would not be optimal for a number of activities (tennis; basketball; soccer; American Football) but in each of these sports there are athletes who excel doing a modified version of the LCHF diet which provides sufficient glucose when needed, which is something that the original article ignored.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2015, 01:05:26 PM »
Events like marathons absolutely involve sprinting. Not terribly frequently per event but its there and it makes a difference.
Also, maintaining pace on inclines feels very similar to sprinting and is hugely taxing on energy systems.

Offline Plastiq

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2015, 01:12:28 PM »
First, marathon runners and endurance athletes generally don't sprint

No, that never happens towards the finish line.

There are also endurance athletes on very strict LCHF diets who excel at marathons, triathlons and iron man events.

Yup, the question is whether they'd be that much better with carbohydrate.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2015, 01:22:16 PM »
Events like marathons absolutely involve sprinting. Not terribly frequently per event but its there and it makes a difference.
Also, maintaining pace on inclines feels very similar to sprinting and is hugely taxing on energy systems.

There is plenty of glucagon for some sprinting on LCHF dieting, but not extended sprinting. On a LCHF diet you'll be burning a combination of glucose, ketones and fat, to provide fuel for your marathon, which will get you up those hills. When fat and ketones are available jogging will burn those more than glucose, keeping that available for when you need the bursts of speed.

If you're not leto-adapted you'll be burning glucose mostly, little fat and almost zero ketones, and you have comparatively small glucose reserves.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2015, 01:28:40 PM »
Im not making any claims one way or the other regarding LCHF for endurance athletes. Im just saying they do sprint and if they are doing something like long distance fell running then they will be doing it alot. Or at least operating at far higher levels of energy output periodically throughout an event.
If you are saying the diet still lets them perform to the same or greater levels then thats all good and I will leave the discussion of that to people with more background in sports nutrition than me.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2015, 01:29:57 PM »
First, marathon runners and endurance athletes generally don't sprint

No, that never happens towards the finish line.

There are also endurance athletes on very strict LCHF diets who excel at marathons, triathlons and iron man events.

Yup, the question is whether they'd be that much better with carbohydrate.

So you're saying that the question is whether this guy, who switched from the typical high-carb diet to a LCHF diet and started winning ultra marathons (and beating course records) would have done better if he hadn't switched?

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/
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Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2015, 01:32:33 PM »
Im not making any claims one way or the other regarding LCHF for endurance athletes. Im just saying they do sprint and if they are doing something like long distance fell running then they will be doing it alot. Or at least operating at far higher levels of energy output periodically throughout an event.
If you are saying the diet still lets them perform to the same or greater levels then thats all good and I will leave the discussion of that to people with more background in sports nutrition than me.

I'm wondering if we're not mixing up terms. There's jogging, which is the bulk of marathons; running which is faster and marathoners do it for short periods and there is all out sprinting, which is more typical in a soccer game or a 50 yard dash than a marathon.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2015, 01:40:37 PM »
A sprint is running as fast as you can for a short distance. Obviously that will look different at the end of a 3hour jog than it does in a a 90min football match.
Also there are more endurance sports in the world than marathons. Many of them have formats that require short bursts of intense output that feel very similar to sprinting.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2015, 02:28:26 PM »
A sprint is running as fast as you can for a short distance. Obviously that will look different at the end of a 3hour jog than it does in a a 90min football match.
Also there are more endurance sports in the world than marathons. Many of them have formats that require short bursts of intense output that feel very similar to sprinting.

It seems like the distinctions are not totally clear cut, but the point is that the muscles and exertion of  jogging burn much more fat and ketones in a keto-adapted runner. The muscles and exertion involved in sprinting and, to a lesser extent, running, require glucose as fuel.

The important differences aren't how fast you can run, how it "looks" or how it "feels", the difference is which fuel the muscles are using. On a high-carb diet, if you're too exhausted at the end of a 3 hour jog to do a decent sprint, then you're probably not changing the fuel you're burning for what feels like a sprint to you.

But, if you're on a LCHF diet, for 25 7/8 miles you'll be burning mostly fat and ketones all along and have some glucose/glucagon in reserve, for that sprint to the finish. (Kind of like the caveman who's been running the mammoth to exhaustion with his hunting party, but has enough glucose in reserve for that life-saving burst of speed when the prey turns on the hunter.)
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Online Harry Black

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2015, 01:43:49 AM »
Yeah, persistence hunting still happens all over the place and I cant imagine those people having access to lots of grains.
As I said, I have very little interest in the lchf question as its not relevant to me. I was just nitpicking on the sprinting thing. 

Offline PB67

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2015, 06:58:26 AM »
First, marathon runners and endurance athletes generally don't sprint

No, that never happens towards the finish line.

There are also endurance athletes on very strict LCHF diets who excel at marathons, triathlons and iron man events.

Yup, the question is whether they'd be that much better with carbohydrate.

So you're saying that the question is whether this guy, who switched from the typical high-carb diet to a LCHF diet and started winning ultra marathons (and beating course records) would have done better if he hadn't switched?

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/

"Why didn’t he need much?  And what DID he eat?

STEVE PHINNEY:  I wouldn’t tell you the details even if I knew because it’s confidential research information.  And I don’t think he’d want any of the details of what he’s doing to be public, because, realize, all of a sudden this guy knows absolutely that he’s got a remarkable competitive edge."

Convenient.

Online Harry Black

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2015, 08:26:47 AM »
Also, its entirely possible that he would have changed sports and done better on a different diet.
Even if the diet was properly recorded and made public (research information shouldnt really be top secret should it?) and he was completely compliant with LCHF, it shows nothing about LCHF compared to other diets.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2015, 10:39:00 AM »
Also, its entirely possible that he would have changed sports and done better on a different diet.

Right, but what happened with this anecdote is he switched to a LCHF diet and did remarkably well. All this proves is that it's possible to do quite well in endurance running on a LCHF diet.
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Even if the diet was properly recorded and made public (research information shouldnt really be top secret should it?)

Well, the runner wasn't doing research he was competing. Phinney and Volek were doing research, and when they publish (if it's published) then it will be public. That's the way things usually work, researchers rarely make their data public while they're doing research. 

I'm wondering if this might be related to this race (although it's not specifically about macronutrient composition of the diet it's possible that they gathered lots of data and are writing more articles from the data)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24931590

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and he was completely compliant with LCHF, it shows nothing about LCHF compared to other diets.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he wasn't LCHF. The "secret" is what specific foods he ate.
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Offline David "Stubb" Oswald

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2015, 12:18:23 PM »
That's the way things usually work, researchers rarely make their data public while they're doing research. 

Speaking as a scientist, it doesn't work that way. At least a month of the year you travel to conferences showing preliminary data with the hope maybe you overlooked something. And I am not talking about preliminary findings either, scientists are usually quite explicit about data if it is requested. I am skeptical about "ground breaking" research that can't be shown until it is published at some later date. One subject, top secret, this sounds like bullshit research.
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