Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 25553 times)

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Offline Billzbub

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #480 on: February 20, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
This post isn't meant to support or contradict LCHF diets.  I just want to point out a detail.

Calories in equals calories out is a misleading statement.  Calories can be burned, stored, or excreted.  Drugs like Farxiga prevent glucose absorption by the kidneys, so a portion of the carbs you eat (calories in) just get peed out (calories out).

Simplifying eating and exercise with the statement "calories in equals calories out" isn't really as meaningful as people imply.  People who say it usually mean that if you eat X calories, you have to burn X calories to avoid storing some, but in reality you can burn less than X calories and excrete the rest and still stay neutral.  Many things can effect how many calories our body excretes rather than stores.

No.  You've given exactly one example: a drug.  In fact, there is very little variation from person to person in proportion of dietary calories that are excreted, and the calorie contents of foods reported in nutrition tables and nutrition labels—called physiologic energy—are net of the excreted calories anyway.  So the equation, calories in = calories burned + calories stored, is extremely accurate, given that the "calories in" value is physiologic energy.

That may be.  As a Type I Diabetic, I have a warped perception of this since I can control how much glucose my body absorbs in a very direct way* via insulin.  Carry on.

*: I control it as my doctor directs unless I accidentally mess up, so don't think I'm running a high blood glucose to try to lose weight.  I'd just end up eating more, staying the same weight, and screwing up all my capillaries in the process.

Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #481 on: February 20, 2017, 04:50:49 PM »
This post isn't meant to support or contradict LCHF diets.  I just want to point out a detail.

Calories in equals calories out is a misleading statement.  Calories can be burned, stored, or excreted.  Drugs like Farxiga prevent glucose absorption by the kidneys, so a portion of the carbs you eat (calories in) just get peed out (calories out).

Simplifying eating and exercise with the statement "calories in equals calories out" isn't really as meaningful as people imply.  People who say it usually mean that if you eat X calories, you have to burn X calories to avoid storing some, but in reality you can burn less than X calories and excrete the rest and still stay neutral.  Many things can effect how many calories our body excretes rather than stores.

No.  You've given exactly one example: a drug.  In fact, there is very little variation from person to person in proportion of dietary calories that are excreted, and the calorie contents of foods reported in nutrition tables and nutrition labels—called physiologic energy—are net of the excreted calories anyway.  So the equation, calories in = calories burned + calories stored, is extremely accurate, given that the "calories in" value is physiologic energy.

That may be.  As a Type I Diabetic, I have a warped perception of this since I can control how much glucose my body absorbs in a very direct way* via insulin.  Carry on.

*: I control it as my doctor directs unless I accidentally mess up, so don't think I'm running a high blood glucose to try to lose weight.  I'd just end up eating more, staying the same weight, and screwing up all my capillaries in the process.

Yes.  Diabetes would be an exception.

Offline Billzbub

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #482 on: April 25, 2017, 08:34:36 AM »
Harriet Hall from Science-Based Medicine just published an article about Gary Taubes and his crusade against sugar:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-against-sugar/

I expected the article to be a debunking of Taubes, but it really isn't.  Basically, Hall just says that Taubes is probably over-simplifying something that is more complex, and that Taubes himself admits that the evidence he's found is not conclusive.  It is just the type of article where we could argue with each other for days about it's significance one way or the other.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #483 on: April 25, 2017, 10:36:02 AM »
Harriet Hall from Science-Based Medicine just published an article about Gary Taubes and his crusade against sugar:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-against-sugar/

I expected the article to be a debunking of Taubes, but it really isn't.  Basically, Hall just says that Taubes is probably over-simplifying something that is more complex, and that Taubes himself admits that the evidence he's found is not conclusive.  It is just the type of article where we could argue with each other for days about it's significance one way or the other.

I will read this, but it's nothing new (although the article might be). Hall has been saying this for years (since "Good Calories Bad Calories."  Apparently Taubes was rude to her.

Before reading the article, this is what she's said in the past:

The hypothesis based on insulin's role as the body's of fat storage and energy portioning driven by blood glucose levels is an oversimplification. And then in the same article she'll revert to some form of the calories in/calories out hypothesis for regulation of fat storage, which is not only a greater oversimplification it's not accurate.

Then she'll say that Taubes is proposing changing from an approach and way of thinking we adopted with incomplete science to a new approach and way of thinking with incomplete science.

But that's not what Taubes is proposing, and ignores a major point. Not only is the mainstream position an incorrect way of thinking about nutrition that was not based on science, it is also an intervention that we have been doing to our population for 40 years without good science to support it. And not only hasn't been working (in preventing CVD and chronic disease) it has made things worse and caused a terrible side effect (the obesity epidemic).

Taubes doesn't want to change one unscientific intervention with another. He wants us to end the current intervention. And start from scratch based on what we know now (many key parts of the dietary guidelines have already been debunked but are still promoted at every level) and pursue further research based on a null hypothesis.


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Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #484 on: April 25, 2017, 04:21:58 PM »
This post isn't meant to support or contradict LCHF diets.  I just want to point out a detail.

Calories in equals calories out is a misleading statement.  Calories can be burned, stored, or excreted.  Drugs like Farxiga prevent glucose absorption by the kidneys, so a portion of the carbs you eat (calories in) just get peed out (calories out).

Simplifying eating and exercise with the statement "calories in equals calories out" isn't really as meaningful as people imply.  People who say it usually mean that if you eat X calories, you have to burn X calories to avoid storing some, but in reality you can burn less than X calories and excrete the rest and still stay neutral.  Many things can effect how many calories our body excretes rather than stores.

No.  You've given exactly one example: a drug.  In fact, there is very little variation from person to person in proportion of dietary calories that are excreted, and the calorie contents of foods reported in nutrition tables and nutrition labels—called physiologic energy—are net of the excreted calories anyway.  So the equation, calories in = calories burned + calories stored, is extremely accurate, given that the "calories in" value is physiologic energy.

That may be.  As a Type I Diabetic, I have a warped perception of this since I can control how much glucose my body absorbs in a very direct way* via insulin.  Carry on.

*: I control it as my doctor directs unless I accidentally mess up, so don't think I'm running a high blood glucose to try to lose weight.  I'd just end up eating more, staying the same weight, and screwing up all my capillaries in the process.

Yes.  Diabetes would be an exception.

An exception to what, the laws of thermodynamics?
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"Well, sometimes the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't." -- Chief Dan George, "Little Big Man"

Offline Billzbub

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #485 on: April 25, 2017, 04:36:17 PM »
This post isn't meant to support or contradict LCHF diets.  I just want to point out a detail.

Calories in equals calories out is a misleading statement.  Calories can be burned, stored, or excreted.  Drugs like Farxiga prevent glucose absorption by the kidneys, so a portion of the carbs you eat (calories in) just get peed out (calories out).

Simplifying eating and exercise with the statement "calories in equals calories out" isn't really as meaningful as people imply.  People who say it usually mean that if you eat X calories, you have to burn X calories to avoid storing some, but in reality you can burn less than X calories and excrete the rest and still stay neutral.  Many things can effect how many calories our body excretes rather than stores.

No.  You've given exactly one example: a drug.  In fact, there is very little variation from person to person in proportion of dietary calories that are excreted, and the calorie contents of foods reported in nutrition tables and nutrition labels—called physiologic energy—are net of the excreted calories anyway.  So the equation, calories in = calories burned + calories stored, is extremely accurate, given that the "calories in" value is physiologic energy.

That may be.  As a Type I Diabetic, I have a warped perception of this since I can control how much glucose my body absorbs in a very direct way* via insulin.  Carry on.

*: I control it as my doctor directs unless I accidentally mess up, so don't think I'm running a high blood glucose to try to lose weight.  I'd just end up eating more, staying the same weight, and screwing up all my capillaries in the process.

Yes.  Diabetes would be an exception.

An exception to what, the laws of thermodynamics?

Calories in for a type 1 diabetic doesn't necessarily equate to calories processed like it does for everyone else.  Also, insulin response has no meaning because it is manually controlled.

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #486 on: April 25, 2017, 04:50:30 PM »
True, if your type 2 diabetes is out of control or you don't take insulin, you can pretty well eat all the sugar and you're not going to digest it. I mean, you're also going to deposit all of that into your blood, give yourself a stroke, and make your feet fall off, but yeah, one of the signs of diabetes in adults is rapid, uncontrolled weight loss...
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Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #487 on: April 25, 2017, 05:34:55 PM »
Harriet Hall from Science-Based Medicine just published an article about Gary Taubes and his crusade against sugar:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-against-sugar/

I expected the article to be a debunking of Taubes, but it really isn't.  Basically, Hall just says that Taubes is probably over-simplifying something that is more complex, and that Taubes himself admits that the evidence he's found is not conclusive.  It is just the type of article where we could argue with each other for days about it's significance one way or the other.

All diseases have a single cause: sugar.  So it's now official: Taubes is diet crank.

Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #488 on: April 25, 2017, 05:36:18 PM »
True, if your type 2 diabetes is out of control or you don't take insulin, you can pretty well eat all the sugar and you're not going to digest it. I mean, you're also going to deposit all of that into your blood...

If the sugar got into your blood, you had to absorb it, which implies that if it needed digestion, you digested it.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #489 on: April 25, 2017, 06:34:19 PM »
True, if your type 2 diabetes is out of control or you don't take insulin, you can pretty well eat all the sugar and you're not going to digest it. I mean, you're also going to deposit all of that into your blood, give yourself a stroke, and make your feet fall off, but yeah, one of the signs of diabetes in adults is rapid, uncontrolled weight loss...

You are confusing type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes. You're also confusing insulin resistance in lean tissue and insulin resistance in fat cells.

If you are a type 1 diabetic your body doesn't produce insulin and, as insulin regulates fat storage, without it you do lose weight rapidly and then you die. (injectable insulin is a lifesaver.) Before insulin treatments were developed the best way to prolong the lives of diabetes patients was an extremely low carb ketogenic diet.

For type 2 diabetes, rapid weight loss is not a symptom. In fact the opposite. It very strongly correlates with obesity.

One of the hallmarks of T2D is insulin resistance in lean tissue. Which means when glucose is high your body produces insulin, but it's not absorbed fast enough into lean tissue, so you produce even more insulin. But your fat cells respond, storring more and more fat.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 06:36:53 PM by estockly »
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Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #490 on: April 25, 2017, 06:49:35 PM »
Harriet Hall from Science-Based Medicine just published an article about Gary Taubes and his crusade against sugar:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-against-sugar/

I expected the article to be a debunking of Taubes, but it really isn't.  Basically, Hall just says that Taubes is probably over-simplifying something that is more complex, and that Taubes himself admits that the evidence he's found is not conclusive.  It is just the type of article where we could argue with each other for days about it's significance one way or the other.

All diseases have a single cause: sugar.  So it's now official: Taubes is diet crank.

Maybe you should read Taubes to see what the argument he's actually making is.

Quote
In two earlier books, Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It, he marshaled masses of evidence to support his thesis that the calories in/calories out model is wrong, that carbohydrates are the cause of obesity and most of the “diseases of civilization,” and that simply restricting carbohydrates will result in weight loss regardless of the total number of calories ingested.

There's a reason that phrase is in quotes. Taubes discusses a well recognized specific set of diseases that are rare or nearly non-existent outside of modern civilized societies, including obesity; metabolic syndrome; Type 2 Diabetes; CVD (at a relatively early age); and some forms of cancer.

He makes the case that each of these diseases of civilization and be plausibly tied to sugar, either as a cause; contributing cause or aggravating factor.
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Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #491 on: April 25, 2017, 06:53:34 PM »
Harriet Hall from Science-Based Medicine just published an article about Gary Taubes and his crusade against sugar:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-against-sugar/

I expected the article to be a debunking of Taubes, but it really isn't.  Basically, Hall just says that Taubes is probably over-simplifying something that is more complex, and that Taubes himself admits that the evidence he's found is not conclusive.  It is just the type of article where we could argue with each other for days about it's significance one way or the other.

All diseases have a single cause: sugar.  So it's now official: Taubes is diet crank.

Maybe you should read Taubes to see what the argument he's actually making is.

Quote
In two earlier books, Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It, he marshaled masses of evidence to support his thesis that the calories in/calories out model is wrong, that carbohydrates are the cause of obesity and most of the “diseases of civilization,” and that simply restricting carbohydrates will result in weight loss regardless of the total number of calories ingested.

There's a reason that phrase is in quotes. Taubes discusses a well recognized specific set of diseases that are rare or nearly non-existent outside of modern civilized societies, including obesity; metabolic syndrome; Type 2 Diabetes; CVD (at a relatively early age); and some forms of cancer.

He makes the case that each of these diseases of civilization and be plausibly tied to sugar, either as a cause; contributing cause or aggravating factor.

"I know a panacea for the 'diseases of civilization'" is the standard claim of the diet crank.

Offline estockly

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #492 on: April 27, 2017, 11:56:54 PM »
Name that fallacy


Your mileage may vary.
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Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #493 on: April 28, 2017, 12:14:46 AM »
Name that fallacy


Your mileage may vary.

Using Bayes' Theorem, estimate the probability that Tabues, having no training in medicine, biology, nutrition, or biochemistry, has found the cure for the "diseases of civilization" vs the probability that he is just the latest in a long string of cranks to falsely believe he has.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:42:20 AM by jt512 »

 

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