Topic: Is Dawkins a Jew Hating 'Christian Atheist'?

[Desert Fox]

Most people who condemn the morality of the OT do so because they believe in some form of social justice values and antisemitism is incompatible with the idea of social justice.  For the record, those same critics of the OT would be as equally critical of the outdated morality in the NT, such as the sexist passages attributed to Saint Paul and the book of Revelation.

In many ways the NT is worse because the OT god will just kill you, noy torture you forever

[RaptureMay21]

Surely Muslims can use Dawkins' many screeds against Christianity to denigrate that religion as well. Does that make him a Christian hating Christian atheist?

The point that this rabbi is making is that dawkins screed on christianity is derived from actually connecting the negitive aspects of christian scripture to facets of christian culture
Whereas his screed on the old testament is derived from outdated antisemitic ideas of how jewish scripture connects to jewish culture.

I've never seen where Dawkins has a particular issue with Jewish people, just the religion itself.

And the rabbi isn't calling Dawkins an antisemite - hes saying that his synopsis of the torah is derived from antisemitism.

In a nutshell: don't try to clothe your anti-atheist bigotry in the rhetoric of tolerance, thanks.

You're right, you did not see the point.

That both the atheist and the antisemite are using the same tool - but for different purposes.

Atheists dont exist in a vacuum.
My larger point is that the arguments WE use against faith both come from (loosely), and are co-opted by bigots.

[Johnny Slick]

And the rabbi isn't calling Dawkins an antisemite - hes saying that his synopsis of the torah is derived from antisemitism.

No, his synopsis of the Torah is derived from his reading it. I've read the Torah myself - well, the first five books in a Christian bible; the translation may be different in a Jewish version - and pretty much agree with his sentiment. Not based on some reading of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, based on the fact that it's fucking retarded. "HEY ABRAHAM KILL YOUR SON" "Ah shit, JWHW, I guess if you say so but fuckin a man" "LOL J/K BUT IF YOU SAY FUCKIN A MAN AGAIN I WILL GO SODOM AND GOMORRAH ALL OVER THAT SHIT".

[Neon Genesis]

The point that this rabbi is making is that dawkins screed on christianity is derived from actually connecting the negitive aspects of christian scripture to facets of christian culture
Whereas his screed on the old testament is derived from outdated antisemitic ideas of how jewish scripture connects to jewish culture.

How exactly is it antisemitic to say that selling your daughter into slavery is immoral or that it's immoral to stone children to death just because they disobeyed their parents?  What the rabbi is actually saying is "don't criticize me and my religion because any criticism of me at all is intolerant!"

[Greenlee]

Let's be clear: Dawkins is attacking beliefs rather than making generalizations like "jews have a tendency to be unemployed lazyasses."

I also think that Dawkins made it a point to mention several faiths throughout his criticisms - with the overall point being that "look, every one of these faiths have shitty, immoral gods."

I am not saying that Dawkins is a "saint," but calling him antisemitic is an incredible stretch.

[JuniorSpaceman]

Christian anti-Semitism has never been directed towards the OT, and always been about the Rabbinical laws, customs, etc (with occasional sidelines into the idea that current 'Jews' are really usurpers of the OT traditions). Sacks should know this.

[Shibboleth]

Years from now people will look back and say, "those people were horribly immoral" and they will be right within their own paradigm.

As far as the claim... it is always important to realize that anti-Judaism isn't the same as antisemitism; however, you can attack a culture's beliefs in such a way that it indirectly targets the people that harbor the beliefs. Did Dawkins do this in this statement? I don't think so. I think he made a statement that he knew would elicit a reaction so that people could act affronted when that reaction occurs.

[Johnny Slick]

Christian anti-Semitism has never been directed towards the OT, and always been about the Rabbinical laws, customs, etc (with occasional sidelines into the idea that current 'Jews' are really usurpers of the OT traditions). Sacks should know this.

Yeah, that's a good point. In fact, when medieval Christians thought the Jews were all about the Torah, they were actually pretty okay with it thanks to a particular reading of the story of Elam and Esau that basically said "the older brother stays around to record the glory of the younger one". They freaked out and really started to get their persecution on when they learned of the Talmud since, well, the Talmud is clearly younger than the NT.

[Shibboleth]

What? The Medevial Christians were banned from engaging in usury so everyone had to go to the Jews for a loan. This made many Jewish rich while at the same time put many in-debt to the Jews. If you read "The Jews and their Lies" by Luther and the Papal Bulls against the Jews you will see that usury is at the forefront.

[Johnny Slick]

What? The Medevial Christians were banned from engaging in usury so everyone had to go to the Jews for a loan. This made many Jewish rich while at the same time put many in-debt to the Jews. If you read "The Jews and their Lies" by Luther and the Papal Bulls against the Jews you will see that usury is at the forefront.

Usury is a huge issue but it's also something of a side issue to what I was talking about But yes, the entire point of why Jews were available to lend money to Christians is that Christ said that Christians couldn't lend to each other. And certainly there were anti-Semitic riots before the Christian discovery of the Talmud. Indeed, the Jews had been kicked out of England roughly 200 years before Nicholas Donin, a former Jew, led the first major disputation against the book. That, I think, was the beginning of the change in attitude towards Jews from "people useful to have around and to scapegoat a lot" to "we've got to get these people out of here" in Western Europe in particular.

[JuniorSpaceman]

What? The Medevial Christians were banned from engaging in usury so everyone had to go to the Jews for a loan. This made many Jewish rich while at the same time put many in-debt to the Jews. If you read "The Jews and their Lies" by Luther and the Papal Bulls against the Jews you will see that usury is at the forefront.

Thanks, Shibboleth - I was only talking about Christian Anti-Semitism that was rooted in the beliefs/texts/customs of the Jews, not the other external factors (of which there were many). Of course, many of the justifications for C A-S come directly from the New Testament, about which Dawkins and most Rabbis would be in complete agreement.

[superdave]

Pointing out that many hollywood producers are Jewish is not anti-semetic.  Saying that Jews run hollywood is.  The difference is the unstated major premise in the second statement about the nature of Jewish involvement in Hollywood.

So goes the statement by Dawkins.  I think if he said the Jews worship a terrible God that would be anti-semetic, but pointing out an reasonable interpretation of the Old Testament is not.