Author Topic: No Man's Sky  (Read 8660 times)

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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2015, 01:32:23 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen plenty of actual gameplay.  True we haven't seen the trading system, but we have seen a glimpse of the upgrade system.  What gives me hope about this game is that while they are saying things about how some players may never actually leave a planet and so on (which seems highly dubious), they seem to have crafted the game around one major goal of reaching the center of the galaxy and have structured the game to progress in certain ways as you get closer to that goal.  The creator said something about how many will see reaching the center as the end of the game and feel they've finished it and no longer play.  To me that suggests a linear structure within an open world game, similar to how one can progress through a GTA game and finish it, but one can also waste shitloads of time.  Obviously, it will all come down to how much fun the gameplay itself is and so far that's what has me the most excited.

I don't want to paint myself as buying all this stuff hook, line, and sinker though.  I am indeed skeptical of the claims they make, but so far what they have shown makes me too excited to be cynical.  This may be the game that prompts me to get a PS4 over a XBone, but I'll be waiting for the reviews to come in before I make that leap.

ETA: I'll say this too, I'm way more interested in the game creating a desire to upgrade and progress than how specifically diverse the planets and wildlife are.  I mean, grinding away to level up in RPGs is a tried and true tradition and no one complains about the enemies not being diverse enough when you do that. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 01:40:17 AM by Eternally Learning »

Offline Sordid

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 08:56:54 AM »
One other thing though, is that they mentioned that as you move towards the center of the galaxy the hostility on planets increases along with the value of the resources you can find.  That gives me so hope in that they seem to have designed a system wherein it's not a structured story, but the experience has been minimally structured to keep things fresh.

IIRC in one of their videos they said something about there being many different paths along which you can progress, and they specifically mentioned diving. You dive into the ocean, get resources, use them to craft better diving gear that allows you to dive deeper, get better resources from greater depth, craft better diving gear, etc., until you're able to explore the deepest oceans. So basically a classic Minecraft/Terraria/Starbound system of "punch trees -> make wooden pickaxe -> mine stone -> make stone pickaxe -> mine iron -> make iron pickaxe", etc. Tiers of resources where upgrading your gear allows you to mine the next tier, which allows you to upgrade your gear even further.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen plenty of actual gameplay.

We've seen only the most basic gameplay elements. Walking around, shooting a pig, mining a resource. While that's basically all there is to this type of game, it's the context that makes these actions interesting. We've seen none of that yet.

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they are saying things about how some players may never actually leave a planet and so on (which seems highly dubious)

Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. That's like saying "some Minecraft players never progress beyond basic iron equipment". While I'm sure that's true and there are some players who never progressed beyond that, I'm inclined to think that it's not because they were happy with that but rather because they couldn't progress further because they didn't know what to do because the game sucks at explaining itself. That's nothing to brag about for a developer. :P

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This may be the game that prompts me to get a PS4 over a XBone.

Or you could get it for PC and get a much better gaming experience. ;)

Quote
I'll say this too, I'm way more interested in the game creating a desire to upgrade and progress than how specifically diverse the planets and wildlife are.  I mean, grinding away to level up in RPGs is a tried and true tradition and no one complains about the enemies not being diverse enough when you do that. 

Most RPGs have a handcrafted world, though, and the overall experience is much more structured. When the developers know where you're going to go and what you're going to do at every point, they can make sure the game remains interesting. Not so much when they rely on an algorithm to create the game world for them and give you total freedom to go wherever you want.

Offline Henning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 10:48:37 AM »

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I'll say this too, I'm way more interested in the game creating a desire to upgrade and progress than how specifically diverse the planets and wildlife are.  I mean, grinding away to level up in RPGs is a tried and true tradition and no one complains about the enemies not being diverse enough when you do that. 

Most RPGs have a handcrafted world, though, and the overall experience is much more structured. When the developers know where you're going to go and what you're going to do at every point, they can make sure the game remains interesting. Not so much when they rely on an algorithm to create the game world for them and give you total freedom to go wherever you want.

I'm into some lack of structure... you can play as a "space pirate" or "prospector" or "ecologist" but it's not like you have to choose your character at the beginning of the game.

Anyone play Don't Starve? An unstructured game with a procedural map with enough complexity in crafting and NPCs that interesting strategies and gameplay emerges, rather than a prescription by the designers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. -- Hitchens.

Offline teethering

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 11:07:34 AM »
Yeah, but in Don't Starve you have a shit ton of actual game mechanics.

Think about how you would start making Don't Starve, would you start with creating a world with a wide variety of objects or would you start out with a bunch of user controlled actions and craft recipes and then add more objects and more recipes later?  In Don't Starve terms the current demos look like just a walking simulator in a really big world.  And that's what doesn't fill me with confidence, the actual gameplay seems like an afterthought to the central idea of a really big open world.

Offline Sordid

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 11:19:13 AM »
Exactly. It's very reminiscent of Minecraft in that way. That also started out basically as "let's see if I can make a big world generator", and the actual game was added in almost as an afterthought. Which is fine, because Minecraft is more of a creativity toy than a game, it's all about building things. AFAIK there won't be any building in NMS so... what exactly is the game going to be about again?

I guess it all comes down to how much depth there is in the various activities you can do. Like if you want to play a miner, are you just going to walk around shooting crystals and buying upgrades that let you shoot differently colored crystals, or is there going to be more to it? Same with playing an explorer. They showed off that scanner thingy that tags undiscovered animals and such and gives you cash for discovering them, right? So if I decide to play as an explorer, am I just going to be walking around spamming the scanner? Or will there be more to it than that?

Offline wastrel

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 11:36:34 AM »
Sordid, I don't understand how you get any enjoyment out of video games :S

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 05:24:07 PM »
One other thing though, is that they mentioned that as you move towards the center of the galaxy the hostility on planets increases along with the value of the resources you can find.  That gives me so hope in that they seem to have designed a system wherein it's not a structured story, but the experience has been minimally structured to keep things fresh.

IIRC in one of their videos they said something about there being many different paths along which you can progress, and they specifically mentioned diving. You dive into the ocean, get resources, use them to craft better diving gear that allows you to dive deeper, get better resources from greater depth, craft better diving gear, etc., until you're able to explore the deepest oceans. So basically a classic Minecraft/Terraria/Starbound system of "punch trees -> make wooden pickaxe -> mine stone -> make stone pickaxe -> mine iron -> make iron pickaxe", etc. Tiers of resources where upgrading your gear allows you to mine the next tier, which allows you to upgrade your gear even further.

I was under the impression that by "there being many different paths" they meant that there's no one way to play the game.  You can mine resources peacefully and trade them (and given the diving comment, which I hadn't yet heard, I'd say there are different ways to mine resources too), you can explore and upload scans for units which you can trade for items, you can simply buy low and sell high to get better resources, and you can even just be a pirate and steal what you want.  I agree that it seems very much like a Minecraft system of leveling up and I seem to recall the designer actually making that comparison as well.  In the new video I just posted, he n compares the crafting system (using their sci-fi periodic table) to Minecraft too, even stating that they will not hold players hands by telling us how to craft what.  It seems very much like they are attempting to create an active online community based around this game.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen plenty of actual gameplay.

We've seen only the most basic gameplay elements. Walking around, shooting a pig, mining a resource. While that's basically all there is to this type of game, it's the context that makes these actions interesting. We've seen none of that yet.

I'm honestly not all that sure what you mean.  It seems very much like we've seen a ton of context as in there isn't a lot.  There's no story that I'm aware of, multiplayer interactions are not prioritized at all (though they seem to be possible), and there don't even seem to be NPC's to interact with unless you are counting the trading posts which I imagine will simply be text-based interfaces.  The most broader context I've seen was a vague allusion to players cobbling together the history of the galaxy from hints found in ruins and such.

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they are saying things about how some players may never actually leave a planet and so on (which seems highly dubious)

Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. That's like saying "some Minecraft players never progress beyond basic iron equipment". While I'm sure that's true and there are some players who never progressed beyond that, I'm inclined to think that it's not because they were happy with that but rather because they couldn't progress further because they didn't know what to do because the game sucks at explaining itself. That's nothing to brag about for a developer. :P

I took it more as them saying that there's so much content on each planets that a player could plausibly entertain themselves for dozens of hours just there.  Given your statement about diving and slowly increasing tech to access better resources, I imagine that's what they are referring to.  Perhaps each planet has all the resources in the game, but some are excessively difficult to reach.

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This may be the game that prompts me to get a PS4 over a XBone.

Or you could get it for PC and get a much better gaming experience. ;)

I would actually prefer this, but affording a console alone is pushing it for me monetarily at the moment.

Quote
I'll say this too, I'm way more interested in the game creating a desire to upgrade and progress than how specifically diverse the planets and wildlife are.  I mean, grinding away to level up in RPGs is a tried and true tradition and no one complains about the enemies not being diverse enough when you do that. 

Most RPGs have a handcrafted world, though, and the overall experience is much more structured. When the developers know where you're going to go and what you're going to do at every point, they can make sure the game remains interesting. Not so much when they rely on an algorithm to create the game world for them and give you total freedom to go wherever you want.

That's not what I'm talking about though.  I'm referring to grinding away at enemies to level up.  I'm not a huge RPG nut, but on the SNES I played a few of the classics and quite often I'd just find an area with higher level baddies and just get into battle after battle with the same ones to level up higher than I ought to be at that point in the game.  I'm just saying that so long as the game generates an interest in leveling up my ships, gear, and so on then the variation of flora, fauna, etc will not be that big of a deal to me.

To reiterate again, I'm saying that of all the concerns to be raised about this game I'm most worried about running out of things to do that I find fun.  I'm comforted by the loose structure they seem to have placed into the game to not craft a narrative, but to influence a direction for players to head in which it appears new types of planets and animals will present themselves as you progress.  I'm also comforted by the fact that this seems to be a project which the designer is extremely passionate about, with him even going so far to state that he's been dreaming about a game like this since he was a kid.  That's why I'm not too off-put by the unusual marketing decisions he's making; he seems to be making a game he wants to play and is just overly concerned about what the players' experiences will be when they first boot up.

Also, the fact that just what I've seen, even if there's literally nothing else to do, is something I want to play for hours.  Maybe that scenario would relegate this to a game I'd pick up later after the price has dropped, but there it is.  I get you have a different view and opinion though and that's cool too.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 05:24:42 PM »
I should have noted that I added a link to an article from yesterday and a video from today.

Offline Sordid

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 08:15:08 PM »
We've seen only the most basic gameplay elements. Walking around, shooting a pig, mining a resource. While that's basically all there is to this type of game, it's the context that makes these actions interesting. We've seen none of that yet.

I'm honestly not all that sure what you mean.  It seems very much like we've seen a ton of context as in there isn't a lot.  There's no story that I'm aware of, multiplayer interactions are not prioritized at all (though they seem to be possible), and there don't even seem to be NPC's to interact with unless you are counting the trading posts which I imagine will simply be text-based interfaces.  The most broader context I've seen was a vague allusion to players cobbling together the history of the galaxy from hints found in ruins and such.

Alright, let me elaborate a bit. Ever play Skyrim? You ask most people, they'll tell you there's a ton of stuff to do in Skyrim, and yeah, there is a staggering number of quests to do and things to discover in that world. But actually if you think about it, you're really only able to do four things: Run around, kill things, pick up items, and talk to NPCs. Those are the only actions you're able to perform. So any and all quests are some combination of these four activities, and it's the story of the quest that gives them context and meaning, thereby making them interesting.

Even the design of the world itself tells stories. You go into a cave, you discover that there are bandits that are using the area close to the entrance as their base, then you go deeper down and you come across some dead bodies, and at the back of the cave is a bunch of monsters lurking in darkness. Not a single word of dialog needs to be spoken to tell you a story about how some bandits set up camp in a cave they didn't know was inhabited by monsters, and some of them ventured too deep inside and got eaten. And again this kind of thing gives context to your exploration and makes it interesting. You're not just exploring some random hole in the ground, you're exploring a den of dangerous, man-eating beasts and the site of tragedy and drama. And it all works because it's hand-crafted by the developers.

Now there's been a lot of work done in recent years in generating vast and beautiful worlds, but there's been basically no work done in generating interesting worlds. I know of no game with a quest generator more sophisticated than "fetch item X from dungeon Y" and "kill monster X in dungeon Y". Skyrim has repeatable generated quests like that, and they're no better than the ones found in Daggerfall, released almost twenty years ago. There's no game that can generate a compelling quest, to say nothing of generating an entire storyline or using environmental storytelling. No Man's Sky won't have a good story generator either, otherwise they'd be talking about it like they're talking about their world generator.

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I took it more as them saying that there's so much content on each planets that a player could plausibly entertain themselves for dozens of hours just there.  Given your statement about diving and slowly increasing tech to access better resources, I imagine that's what they are referring to.  Perhaps each planet has all the resources in the game, but some are excessively difficult to reach.

Possibly. On the other hand, the guy says in the latest video that the star map is a great tool for locating specific resources, so I'm guessing not everything will be found everywhere.

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This may be the game that prompts me to get a PS4 over a XBone.

Or you could get it for PC and get a much better gaming experience. ;)

I would actually prefer this, but affording a console alone is pushing it for me monetarily at the moment.

If you want to save money, get a PC. If you ferret around a bit, you can build a computer for $350 that will match or exceed the consoles in terms of performance and will save you money in the long run due to games generally being cheaper on PC. Plus it's, y'know, an actual computer that you can use for work and such.

(click to show/hide)

Edit: Had to put video into spoiler. I fucking love it when the preview lies to me that the forum isn't going to embed the damn video, and the noembed tag does nothing.

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That's not what I'm talking about though.  I'm referring to grinding away at enemies to level up.  I'm not a huge RPG nut, but on the SNES I played a few of the classics and quite often I'd just find an area with higher level baddies and just get into battle after battle with the same ones to level up higher than I ought to be at that point in the game.  I'm just saying that so long as the game generates an interest in leveling up my ships, gear, and so on then the variation of flora, fauna, etc will not be that big of a deal to me.

To reiterate again, I'm saying that of all the concerns to be raised about this game I'm most worried about running out of things to do that I find fun.  I'm comforted by the loose structure they seem to have placed into the game to not craft a narrative, but to influence a direction for players to head in which it appears new types of planets and animals will present themselves as you progress.  I'm also comforted by the fact that this seems to be a project which the designer is extremely passionate about, with him even going so far to state that he's been dreaming about a game like this since he was a kid.  That's why I'm not too off-put by the unusual marketing decisions he's making; he seems to be making a game he wants to play and is just overly concerned about what the players' experiences will be when they first boot up.

Also, the fact that just what I've seen, even if there's literally nothing else to do, is something I want to play for hours.  Maybe that scenario would relegate this to a game I'd pick up later after the price has dropped, but there it is.  I get you have a different view and opinion though and that's cool too.

Sure, I get that. Again I'm reminded of Starbound, which is basically exactly as you described. The thing is, though... will it generate an interest in leveling up your ships, gear, and so on? I have my doubts about that. For me there are basically two reasons to play a game: Story and gameplay. Skyrim I play for the story; the combat system sucks and it's just something I put up with while exploring the interesting world and its stories. Dark Souls I play for the gameplay; fighting enemies is where the fun is. But NMS is not going to be heavy on story, as far as we know, and it's a first-person shooter on console, so the combat is going to suck. I'm really curious how exactly they intend to generate interest and drive players to progress in the game.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 08:18:09 PM by Sordid »

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2015, 02:10:50 AM »
I hear you, but I think comparing this to Skyrim is not the right way to go.  Skyrim is, as you say, quite story based where without the narrative it's nothing and NMS seems to be precisely the opposite; being gameplay-based where if that fails to be entertaining and fun it's nothing.  Both seem to have RPG elements, but what end the upgrades serve seems to be completely different.  Just based on what they've said so far, I feel pretty confident that they've established the galactic core as the central element to keep you upgrading and advancing. 

At this point, based on some hints they've dropped, I'm wondering if maybe they haven't created some sort of narrative or mythological skeleton in the game as well.  Perhaps some of the story elements are generated randomly (in which case, I'd agree with you that it'll probably be dumb), but I'm speculating that they instead crafted bits and pieces of narrative/mythological hints and clues that have been scattered randomly throughout the galaxy, but as you progress closer to the core the clues and hints progress your understanding in a generally linear fashion.

I think that this game, as it's been presented so far, can really only evoke an interest in leveling up and progressing through the game in a couple of ways.  Either the universe truly provides a simulated reality so complex and diverse that we care about finding new creatures, planets, and resources and that becomes simpler with more easily available resources the closer to the core you get, or the gameplay offers enough diversity of experience that you want to advance your abilities via better resources and so on.

Again though, I just want to stress that I'm not buying all the hype that they are spinning without reserve.  I see many of the same issues you're pointing out and am wondering how the game makers are going to pull off meeting the expectations they've set up.  The difference between you and I suspect is simply that based solely on the gameplay videos I've seen so far, I'm next to certain that this game will be amazing to me for a small amount of time, at least a dozen or so hours.  That experience is extremely alluring to me, even if it does get stale and I wouldn't regret owning the game in that case.  Since, I'm already at that point, I'm perhaps a bit more optimistic (or maybe more apathetic) about the lofty ideas they are spouting.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:27:23 AM by Eternally Learning »

Offline Sordid

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2015, 07:48:12 AM »
The difference between you and I suspect is simply that based solely on the gameplay videos I've seen so far, I'm next to certain that this game will be amazing to me for a small amount of time, at least a dozen or so hours.  That experience is extremely alluring to me, even if it does get stale and I wouldn't regret owning the game in that case.

Oh I'm with you 100% on that. I'm probably not going to buy it at full price if that's the case, mind you. I've been spoiled by the likes of Skyrim and Terraria, which offer hundreds and hundreds of hours of entertainment for a few bucks, so it's difficult for me to justify dropping €60 on something that last twelve hours. But I'm definitely going to pick it up at some point if it turns out at least decent.

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Since, I'm already at that point, I'm perhaps a bit more optimistic (or maybe more apathetic) about the lofty ideas they are spouting.

That's where I'm the opposite of you. Since this is a game I'm interested in, I'm hypercritical of everything they say and show. I want this game to be good, and it worries me a lot that what they're showing so far doesn't really seem all that great.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2015, 07:59:03 AM »
Well, we definitely agree that there's cause for skepticism of their claims and cause for applying caution and patience before throwing money at the computer screen.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2015, 05:36:20 AM »
Added another video to the original post.  Not much in the way of content, just some basic history behind the development.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2015, 12:28:20 AM »
Updated with another video.  This one shows 5 planets they say they chose at random and briefly describe them.  Probably far too briefly to really get a good idea about what they are like in any detail unfortunately.  Getting tired of nothing being very in-depth...

Offline Beleth

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Re: No Man's Sky
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2015, 02:04:13 PM »
Anyone else notice the odd color palette NMS uses?

It looks unnatural (IMO) for space scene yet at the same time strangely familiar. And then it struck me: it's the color palette old pulp sci-fi paperbacks used for their covers.


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