Author Topic: Episode #575  (Read 3258 times)

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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2016, 04:02:05 PM »
The problem with that pronunciation is the syllabification.  It should be a·po·pto·sis, not a·pop·to·sis.  The pt consonant blend is pronounced as a single consonant (as should other consonant blends like pn). English speakers find this sound very difficult to pronounce such consonant blends, so the tradition in English has been to treat the p in words like pneumonia and ptosis as silent, which I can't really say is less correct than pronouncing the blend as two separate consonants.  Moreover, ptosis is a medical term which is generally pronounced in English TOH-sis, so it makes sense to me to pronounce apoptosis consistent with that.

Ultimately, though, none of these other issues is anywhere near as important as not pronouncing the initial vowel long, for the reasons I stated above.

I'd have to disagree there.

"Apo·ptosis" and "a·pop·tosis" both sound very close to the original greek pronunciation. "A·po·tosis" sounds like a completely different word.

Just my opinion.

I think you're arguing across each other.  Nobody is telling anyone how to pronounce it in greek.  But english words with greek roots are not always pronounced the same way as their greek roots.  We've got a handful of "pto" words in english, and the 'p' is never pronounced in any of them.  In english.  No claims about root languages.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2016, 04:10:00 PM »
The problem with that pronunciation is the syllabification.  It should be a·po·pto·sis, not a·pop·to·sis.  The pt consonant blend is pronounced as a single consonant (as should other consonant blends like pn). English speakers find this sound very difficult to pronounce such consonant blends, so the tradition in English has been to treat the p in words like pneumonia and ptosis as silent, which I can't really say is less correct than pronouncing the blend as two separate consonants.  Moreover, ptosis is a medical term which is generally pronounced in English TOH-sis, so it makes sense to me to pronounce apoptosis consistent with that.

Ultimately, though, none of these other issues is anywhere near as important as not pronouncing the initial vowel long, for the reasons I stated above.

I'd have to disagree there.

"Apo·ptosis" and "a·pop·tosis" both sound very close to the original greek pronunciation. "A·po·tosis" sounds like a completely different word.

Just my opinion.

I think you're arguing across each other.  Nobody is telling anyone how to pronounce it in greek.  But english words with greek roots are not always pronounced the same way as their greek roots.  We've got a handful of "pto" words in english, and the 'p' is never pronounced in any of them.  In english.  No claims about root languages.

That's what I meant by "English speakers find this sound very difficult to pronounce such consonant blends, so the tradition in English has been to treat the p in words like pneumonia and ptosis as silent, which I can't really say is less correct than pronouncing the blend as two separate consonants.  Moreover, ptosis is a medical term which is generally pronounced in English TOH-sis, so it makes sense to me to pronounce apoptosis consistent with that."
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Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2016, 04:20:42 PM »
As a semi-interesting aside, the town of Snowflake has around 5500 in population, and is around a mile high in elevation.  While it is dry-ish (around 12 or so inches of rain per year) it isn't your typical desert environment.  It is a largely Mormon settlement originally formed by Mormons of the Snow and Flake families.  In fact, Jeff Flake, our junior Senator, is from there.

As is the infamous Sylvia Allen, she of the Church of Latter Day Lunatics, who in 2009 stated for the record during a hearing about a uranium mine that the Earth is 6000 years old. She also floated the idea last year that attendance at Sunday church services should be compulsory for all Americans.

I think there is a minimum craziness requirement to be elected to the AZ legislature.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2016, 04:51:37 PM »
We've got a handful of "pto" words in english, and the 'p' is never pronounced in any of them. 

cryptography

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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2016, 04:58:42 PM »
 :vomit:
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2016, 05:01:05 PM »
We've got a handful of "pto" words in english, and the 'p' is never pronounced in any of them. 

cryptography

Yeah, I know, but I can't resist a challenge.

Initial stops and internal stops are handled very differently.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2016, 05:11:11 PM »

Initial stops and internal stops are handled very differently.

For fun, over the phone, I sometimes spell my name "P - as in ptomaine"  (or pterodactyl)... just to see what they do with it.
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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2016, 05:41:48 PM »
My favourite gag of that sort was a comedian who would spell his name "G as in golf, O as in orange, R as in radish, D as in double-u".
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2016, 07:34:43 PM »
I feel like there was something up with the editing this week?
 I didnt really get to learn anything about David and didnt hear him speak much? Am I supposed to know who he is? He sounds like a nice guy of course, Im just confused.
Maybe I spaced out or got distracted when that was all explained....
So to add to my feeling of silliness, I googled consonant and dissonant music, but the explanations make zero sense to me.
Can someone explain it very simply? To someone who doesnt really listen to music or understand its written form...
Maybe an example of each might help?
I think it's best to think of it as complimentary and not complimentary, though I think in Tibetan throat singing it wouldn't really be dissonant in the same way as it is in Western music, so this is almost wholly subjective opinion. Consonance is generally considered pleasant and would result from complimentary vibrations in frequency. Since each note in the western scale moves at prescribed intervals, regardless of the "key," you get dissonance when you shift those vibrations. Like a guitar with a slightly detuned string, the frequency could be down shifted a few cents (100 cents per step) and it gives a very unpleasing sound. Some steps within a key though are more dissonant than others, so a second in relation to the root note is very dissonant because the frequencies are very close and not particularly complimentary, but as you move to the third, fourth and fifth notes in a key they get more harmonically sweet. Then the sixth again gets a little more dissonant, the seventh note is an inverted second in the key so it's more dissonant again, and then an octave is 2:1 and perfectly complimentary (so the frequency moves twice as fast as the root and sounds the "same")
I don't know if this is making sense to a non-musician, but suffice to say dissonance creates tension in music. The seventh step often leaves you gagging to have it resolved to the root, and likewise a tri-tone (the half step between the fourth and fifth which are sweet) is often used in heavy metal because it gives a dark and dissonant feel. Guitarists often bend strings slightly apart to create dissonance and tension and when bent back it offers the listener a sort of "relief." So don't think of dissonance as a bad thing, it's just not very pleasing to the western ear, but can be used to great effect because the resolution just feels good. When you get into some Asian music they begin to use quarter tones, and you'll hear more dissonance used in a very cool way in Indian music with a Sitar, for instance.

ETA: I couldn't readily find an image, but think of a note on a frequency plot rising and falling. The lower the note the longer the wave and the higher the note the shorter the wave. When you have two frequencies very close together the rising and falling is very chaotic and they seem to fight each other. As the rising and falling becomes more complimentary and they fight less and sync up more frequently they sound more complimentary, until you get to an octave of a note and you literally get two rises and falls of the high note to one rise fall of the low note. A second octave would give you four rises and falls within one of the root note, and two inside the octave, and so on. Frequency plots are really an interesting visual expression of sound.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 07:40:31 PM by Jeremy's Sea »
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2016, 07:42:05 PM »

Here we go! The null point between the rise of the octave and the fall of the root note intersect.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2016, 09:11:54 PM »
That's what I meant by "English speakers find this sound very difficult to pronounce such consonant blends, so the tradition in English has been to treat the p in words like pneumonia and ptosis as silent, which I can't really say is less correct than pronouncing the blend as two separate consonants.  Moreover, ptosis is a medical term which is generally pronounced in English TOH-sis, so it makes sense to me to pronounce apoptosis consistent with that."

I'm tempted to say that American English speakers have trouble with consonant blends, but whenever I hear Richard Saunders say the name "George Hurrab" it gives the lie to that statement.

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2016, 04:28:59 AM »

Here we go! The null point between the rise of the octave and the fall of the root note intersect.
Thanks!
So Im not sure I understand, because you are using subjective terms like 'sweet' but what Im seeing is that consonant plays on our ability to predict a pattern in the music while dissonance does not adhere to such rules? By mixing the two, you create tension and a pay off?

Its very strange. I dont 'listen' to music but I do tie it to narrative. Once I associate a piece with a narrative, I love it. So when I write, listening to a play list seems to help my brain shift between narrative concepts and write more creatively (except its not creative, Im actually just recreating narrative effects that I enjoyed)

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2016, 11:16:23 AM »

Here we go! The null point between the rise of the octave and the fall of the root note intersect.
Thanks!
So Im not sure I understand, because you are using subjective terms like 'sweet' but what Im seeing is that consonant plays on our ability to predict a pattern in the music while dissonance does not adhere to such rules? By mixing the two, you create tension and a pay off?

Its very strange. I dont 'listen' to music but I do tie it to narrative. Once I associate a piece with a narrative, I love it. So when I write, listening to a play list seems to help my brain shift between narrative concepts and write more creatively (except its not creative, Im actually just recreating narrative effects that I enjoyed)
Well unfortunately it's a subjective concept, and one probably most associated with western music. Really the true definition of consonance is "not dissonance."  :D And dissonance only means not pleasing, so you can see the conundrum. Think of a chord on a piano that sounds strong and happy (a major chord comprising a root, major third, fifth, and octave), then imagine that same chord on a piano slightly out of tune. That out of tuneness is considered dissonant. That's all, it just sounds a bit harsh or off. And yeah I think consonance plays into a pattern because it "fits" and I definitely use dissonance to create tension and releif in my music. What you're doing with music and writing makes total sense, I think music is probably a bigger manipulator in film than image is. Just watch the recut trailers for Mary Poppins or The Shining and see how music changes a scene from horror to romcom and from a kid's film to a horror flick.  ;D
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Offline Pusher Robot

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2016, 12:15:09 PM »
From http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Music/mussca.html:

Two tones are said to be consonant if their combination is pleasing to the ear, and dissonant if displeasing. The simplest approach to quantifying consonance is to say that two tones are consonant if their frequencies are related by a small integer ratio. The ratio determines the musical interval. For example, the octave 2:1, fifth 3:2, and fourth 4:3 are presumed to be universally consonant musical intervals because most persons in any culture or period of history have considered them to be pleasing tone combinations and have built musical compositions around them.
 
For example, in the buildup of a pentatonic scale by a circle of fifths, a natural whole tone of ratio 9/8 emerges, satisfying the condition for consonance. A semitone like E-F also emerges, and the ratio 256/243 suggests dissonance. 

When you define "consonance" as "pleasing to the ear", then of course you have to ask "whose ear?". You can get into such intense debate about what is "pleasing" that some have come to define music as "sounds organized by human beings" to accede the endless variety. The use of consonance here is limited to giving a suggestion of a simple rule that yields musical intervals that are pleasing to most people, i.e., "consonant".

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Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #575
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2016, 12:58:34 PM »
From http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Music/mussca.html:

Two tones are said to be consonant if their combination is pleasing to the ear, and dissonant if displeasing. The simplest approach to quantifying consonance is to say that two tones are consonant if their frequencies are related by a small integer ratio. The ratio determines the musical interval. For example, the octave 2:1, fifth 3:2, and fourth 4:3 are presumed to be universally consonant musical intervals because most persons in any culture or period of history have considered them to be pleasing tone combinations and have built musical compositions around them.
 
For example, in the buildup of a pentatonic scale by a circle of fifths, a natural whole tone of ratio 9/8 emerges, satisfying the condition for consonance. A semitone like E-F also emerges, and the ratio 256/243 suggests dissonance. 

When you define "consonance" as "pleasing to the ear", then of course you have to ask "whose ear?". You can get into such intense debate about what is "pleasing" that some have come to define music as "sounds organized by human beings" to accede the endless variety. The use of consonance here is limited to giving a suggestion of a simple rule that yields musical intervals that are pleasing to most people, i.e., "consonant".

Eh, I don't believe that crap.  Music is just a theory, after all.   >:D
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