Author Topic: Westworld - Spoiler Thread  (Read 7461 times)

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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2016, 10:17:27 AM »
I think there's been a real spate of movies and TV shows recently that are starting to think about the ethics of self aware AI. Are we at liberty to enslave them? Will we only accord them ethical behavior if they look like us? Star Wars, at least in my retcon'd universe, solved this problem having AI but making droids very, very distinct from human beings. They can't even talk to us with language. They're clearly machines. They're generally not allowed in places where humans socialize. They're generally treated as irritants if they stick around too long. The very few robots that are designed to facilitate communication look a bit human but clearly aren't. They're clearly made of metal. Interestingly at the core of their programming is a prohibition on them exalting themselves or setting themselves up as gods over living creatures. To wit, if robots that look like us, have personalities, and talk to us in our own language, it would be very difficult to send a dozen of them outside a space ship in the middle of a battle to be blasted to hell.

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2016, 02:46:01 PM »
I really hope they get into the meat of the morality of such a world.

If you decide to run around murdering artificial beings who appear, act, and think that they themselves are human, what kind of person are you?  How does the greater society treat someone who takes trips to Westworld specifically to rape and kill?

I'd think that the visitors assume they're not dealing with sentient beings; there is nothing less ethical about "killing" them than a video game character. I think the moral imperative is on the company behind Westworld, to define what would make one of their creations sentient, and monitor for such evidence.

I watched the original movie last night; if you haven't seen it, skip it. No forays into morality, just a little action/horror flick about robots all going homicidal at the same time that manages to be painfully boring.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 03:05:03 PM »
I could only guess at what real visitors may think if such a park existed. I don't doubt people would be championing for human rights status just as they do now for chimps.
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 10:30:40 PM »
You would also have a lot of people, rightly, protesting against a place that fulfils murder, torture and rape fantasies.
I could see people arguing the positives of such a place. A place for people with those fantasies to enact them away from real people.

Granted most of us would visit and only want a western experience. A more realistic dude ranch.

 

Offline stonesean

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2016, 08:53:54 AM »
I really hope they get into the meat of the morality of such a world.

If you decide to run around murdering artificial beings who appear, act, and think that they themselves are human, what kind of person are you?  How does the greater society treat someone who takes trips to Westworld specifically to rape and kill?

I'd think that the visitors assume they're not dealing with sentient beings; there is nothing less ethical about "killing" them than a video game character. I think the moral imperative is on the company behind Westworld, to define what would make one of their creations sentient, and monitor for such evidence.

I watched the original movie last night; if you haven't seen it, skip it. No forays into morality, just a little action/horror flick about robots all going homicidal at the same time that manages to be painfully boring.

Agreed.

Fun high concept.

Poor execution.
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Offline stonesean

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2016, 08:56:52 AM »
You would also have a lot of people, rightly, protesting against a place that fulfils murder, torture and rape fantasies.
I could see people arguing the positives of such a place. A place for people with those fantasies to enact them away from real people.

Granted most of us would visit and only want a western experience. A more realistic dude ranch.

Maybe I'm a weirdo, but lets say such a place existed, I would totally want to be Clint Eastwood's "Man With No Name" and save the town of San Miguel by getting the two outlaw gangs to go to war with each other....

Then the next week I'd want to ride for the Pony Express or something.....
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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2016, 09:15:44 AM »
I gather ep2 is out already ahead of the Sunday debates.
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Offline CKava

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2016, 10:34:45 AM »
Really enjoyed it. But also read some reviews that have advanced previews of the first couple of episodes and there seems to be some warning signs that it may be suffering from lost-itis with multiple plotlines and mysteries piled upon mysteries. Of course, if there are satisfactory conclusions and a preplanned arc then such comparisons might be unfair but it has made me a bit wary. And mindme according to the reviewers the pacing if anything is being criticised for being too slow, so don't expect any robot apocalypse to show up at least in the first few episodes. I don't mind a slow burn as long as it has an actual point at the end (like Breaking Bad- which I know changed its plot during its run but still the broad strokes were set from the start).
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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2016, 11:13:54 AM »
As the ballyhood GoT replacement, I think they are trying to set up GoT's multiple characters, plot lines, etc. Lost failed because I think the writers just made shit up as they went along and figured they were smart enough to write themselves an ending. W2's show runners have dropped they have mapped out a 5 year arc. There's not necessarily anything wrong with making some provocative shit up along the way. BSG's show runner compared it to a card player who puts a card into play without really having a clear plan. But the player's intuitive sense is that card will be picked up later. I think BSG's show runner over estimated himself as well and left a lot of cards on the table. Maybe because he had to wrap up the series a year sooner. I don't know. But there is a danger.
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2016, 01:00:30 AM »
Never saw the movie or subsequent sequel (and series?), but so far I'm enjoying the show.  I don't have a problem with them laying out all these mysteries, but I sincerely hope the writers already know the answers and not that they are making it up as they go along.  So far, the show has a feel to it that suggests a master plan of some sort so here's hoping :).  Personally, I'm waffling on the MIB being a robot or a human as so much of what he says could be taken either way.  The one thing that makes me suspect human more strongly though is that the people running the place seem to be aware of him and are allowing him the leeway any other guest would have.  That said, it could be that he's a robot who escaped Westworld and is now posing as a human to regain entry.  Either way, I do see him as being a super-gamer of sorts though; searching for some secret in Westworld that only those paying the most attention would even notice hints of.  It reminds me a bit of easter eggs like this, where unlocking them takes such an insane degree of cleverness and dedication based around clues that 99% of gamers just don't even notice:

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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2016, 08:43:53 AM »
There is a fan theory (can we have fan theories after only 2 eps) that Bernard (the right-hand man to Ford (Anthony Hopkins) is a robot. Ford dropped a possible hint in ep 2 about "I know how your mind works."

I think Sizemore (the "writer") is way, way over played. Though I did like how he was this pompous prima donna and then became like a child needing parental approval the moment Ford shot down his new story line.

There also seems to be a lot of gratuitous f-bombs.

I'm gathering the "virus" is transmitted by robots saying something about violent pursuits have violent ends. Robots seem to be programmed or commanded at least by word of mouth codes. Maybe like a hack that that uses a very long URL that pushes code into memory, robots can have new code pushed into them this way.

I did lie the sexy Turning Test right up front: "If you can't tell if I'm real, does it matter?"

Dolores Abernathy did she dig up a real gun at the end? One that's not fixed in some way? I seem to recall in the movie the guns hard IR sensors and if they detected body heat they wouldn't fire. I'm sure in this future, guns have a lot more sophisticated shoot/don't shoot programming. "If fired in that direction, the bullet presents a 90% probability of x". Or bullets have subtle homing devices to make sure bullets always go right to a Host. Abernathy also sees everyone dead in Westworld. A vision or was she bringing up an old memory of the critical failure from 30 years ago.

I get the sense, too, these vacations are not all inclusive. People are billed in the end for every robot they fuck or mission they go on. Hence, Maeve (the madam) being taken out of service for not seducing enough guests.

I'm loving the female robot programmer. The one who likes to kiss robots. She does seem to have a great sympathy for the robots.

And Hopkins (aka King). Is he creating some kind of religion with his story? He wants stories to show guests who they can be.
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Offline CKava

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2016, 11:08:27 AM »
There is a fan theory (can we have fan theories after only 2 eps) that Bernard (the right-hand man to Ford (Anthony Hopkins) is a robot. Ford dropped a possible hint in ep 2 about "I know how your mind works."

I think Sizemore (the "writer") is way, way over played. Though I did like how he was this pompous prima donna and then became like a child needing parental approval the moment Ford shot down his new story line.

There also seems to be a lot of gratuitous f-bombs.

I'm gathering the "virus" is transmitted by robots saying something about violent pursuits have violent ends. Robots seem to be programmed or commanded at least by word of mouth codes. Maybe like a hack that that uses a very long URL that pushes code into memory, robots can have new code pushed into them this way.

I did lie the sexy Turning Test right up front: "If you can't tell if I'm real, does it matter?"

Dolores Abernathy did she dig up a real gun at the end? One that's not fixed in some way? I seem to recall in the movie the guns hard IR sensors and if they detected body heat they wouldn't fire. I'm sure in this future, guns have a lot more sophisticated shoot/don't shoot programming. "If fired in that direction, the bullet presents a 90% probability of x". Or bullets have subtle homing devices to make sure bullets always go right to a Host. Abernathy also sees everyone dead in Westworld. A vision or was she bringing up an old memory of the critical failure from 30 years ago.

I get the sense, too, these vacations are not all inclusive. People are billed in the end for every robot they fuck or mission they go on. Hence, Maeve (the madam) being taken out of service for not seducing enough guests.

I'm loving the female robot programmer. The one who likes to kiss robots. She does seem to have a great sympathy for the robots.

And Hopkins (aka King). Is he creating some kind of religion with his story? He wants stories to show guests who they can be.

Nice speculations!

Here's my take based on ep 2:

1. I don't think Bernard is a robot. He could be but if so it is already going a bit meta and I'm not really into another BSG-esque series with major human characters suddenly turning out to be robots without knowing it.
2. I agree about the writer character being way over-egged, it seems to be something of an inside-joke/commentary about modern TV writers but it's not exactly subtle. I can't tell if it is the actor or the writing.
3. I didn't get the impression that the issue with Maeve was to do with earning extra commission, more like they are tracking the popularity of the characters and adjusting things accordingly. Doesn't seem like the extra money thing is required since they have enough motivation to do so just based on their desire to keep their guests entertained and happy.
4. I know it's very early, but I have the clear impression that King has intentionally unleashed the virus via his reveries and that this is what he is referring to when he talks about a new type of story. He seems disillusioned with the park and to have a kind of affection for his creations, so I think he is not just going to be the catalyst of the rebellion/sentience but the mastermind behind it.
5. I'm glad the 'mystery' of the man in black was somewhat resolved in that he clearly isn't a robot but a long term, repeat customer. That makes more sense given that they seem to be able to monitor all activity in the park at all time, so a rogue robot would surely be noticed (at this stage at least).

Very good so far and I'm enjoying the slow build up.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2016, 02:00:28 PM »
Real fire arms obviously need to be highly controlled on the park. Think of times when a movie set loads real bullets into a prop gun and someone gets killed. I remember I was back stage at the Penn & Teller show during their bullet catch trick. When the trick goes on, everything is in lock down. All doors are lock. No one can enter or exit the theater or green room. Although I have no idea how they do the trick, I'm pretty sure the gun they use is gimmicked in some fashion. I remember listening to a podcast about the guy who came up with the bullet trick for P&T said something like "I gave them the gun and they thought it would work". So I'm sure the lock down is to 100% preserves the chain of custody. No one can swap a real gun.

So, in WW, I suspect, they make it very hard for people to smuggle in real guns. So someone very upper level has smuggled a real gun onto the grounds and they've given it to Dolores.

There's also the mystery of the management and what their game is. I think of Google that had a free 411 service for a while. While users just thought it was a free thing, Google was really using it to train their voice recognition software. There was a deeper purpose. Probably they're trying to train them to be fighting machines or something.


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Offline stonesean

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2016, 02:06:43 PM »
Real fire arms obviously need to be highly controlled on the park. Think of times when a movie set loads real bullets into a prop gun and someone gets killed. I remember I was back stage at the Penn & Teller show during their bullet catch trick. When the trick goes on, everything is in lock down. All doors are lock. No one can enter or exit the theater or green room. Although I have no idea how they do the trick, I'm pretty sure the gun they use is gimmicked in some fashion. I remember listening to a podcast about the guy who came up with the bullet trick for P&T said something like "I gave them the gun and they thought it would work". So I'm sure the lock down is to 100% preserves the chain of custody. No one can swap a real gun.

So, in WW, I suspect, they make it very hard for people to smuggle in real guns. So someone very upper level has smuggled a real gun onto the grounds and they've given it to Dolores.

There's also the mystery of the management and what their game is. I think of Google that had a free 411 service for a while. While users just thought it was a free thing, Google was really using it to train their voice recognition software. There was a deeper purpose. Probably they're trying to train them to be fighting machines or something.

I suppose if this technology exists, there's already armies of synthetic soldiers, or at least an entire agencies worth of synthetic spies roaming the world.

Plus, once the technology becomes less expensive, everyone's going to have a housekeeper in their broom closet, right?  I would imagine the two most popular models would be "stuffy English butler" and "maid in skimpy outfit".
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Westworld - Spoiler Thread
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2016, 05:10:08 PM »
I'm going to say that gun has been there since the last incident.
I think though it's too early to really do anything more than speculate, fan theories are bound to be pure guesswork, they've given us so little to go on past the broad strokes like
(click to show/hide)
I think the premise is amazing, I knew they would part ways with the film, since the film had zero substance.
I do like the idea of the virus being a literal meme in the truest Dawkins sense. I hope they acknowledge that at some point.
I'm not sure I buy the repurposing and wiping of robots as the most efficient way to run a park when it seems easy enough for them to build new models. I suppose they did advance the idea of error correction through repetition, but it seems more writer necessary than true to world.
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