Author Topic: Episode #596  (Read 4253 times)

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2016, 04:30:19 PM »
That was among the worst SGU interviews I can remember hearing, not quite saved by Cara's brave attempt to actually express something other than 'porn is fine and good and if you don't like any of it, you're a prude who can't tell fantasy from reality' (for which she was immediately condescended to). That Klein seems to be living in the 1970's - when sure, there was ugly porn around, but the only people seeing it are adults who have had enough life experience and are sexually developed enough that it would not have any impact on them - is showing a bizarre ignorance of the fact that the very worst of scenes, which even twenty years ago would have needed to be bought from a physical adult book store, and even then would have been only housed behind the counter, can now be seen by anyone with an internet connection.

...despite the fact that he explained at the beginning that his book was specifically about that exact subject.

Offline ClauClauClaudia

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2016, 05:01:45 PM »
...despite the fact that he explained at the beginning that his book was specifically about that exact subject.

He said that, but didn't really seem to synthesize it with 'most people want to see people being happy having sex'.

Offline JuniorSpaceman

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2016, 06:21:44 PM »
...despite the fact that he explained at the beginning that his book was specifically about that exact subject.
Sort of. He started by saying that the only people who have a problem with porn are straight women, and the reasons he thinks that's the case are that they're either prudes or concerned by the "sexual autonomy" of their partner, being able to masturbate without them. He couldn't bear to consider that (some) women might have a problem with porn for reasons to do with the representation of women, and when Cara challenged him on that - as politely as possible - he shut her down and changed the subject to the old libertarian line that the market follows the wishes of the public.

His solution to problems that porn might cause were to somehow educate people about how it's not real (or look down on people who might take any message away from porn at all, apparently, other than that sex is nice), but his own philosophy is that this can't involve any actual critique of the content of porn at all, lest people be lumped in with followers of pseudoscience and/or uptight religious morality.

Online daniel1948

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2016, 06:49:47 PM »
The attempt to eliminate porn is doomed to failure. Prohibition failed because a lot of people like to drink. Drug laws are disastrous because a lot of people like to use drugs. And anti-porn laws are even more futile because nearly everyone wants to have sex.

I've known two kinds of people opposed to porn: Where I used to live, a number of my friends felt that porn (all porn, they made no distinctions among types) objectifies women and this should not be allowed. They also believed that the making of porn exploits the actors, which is probably true in some cases, though there are artist-owned porn studios. But note that many jobs exploit the workers. Porn is no different in this respect.

The other type of people who oppose porn are the religious types who oppose it because they regard all sex outside of marriage as sinful, and all depictions of the unclothed human body as sinful.

The reality is much more complicated than any of the opponents of porn are willing to see. No matter what anyone says, it's not going away, and I, for one, am glad of that. As a single man I like to look at porn. The odd thing is that there's so much free porn on the internet that you can spend a lifetime looking at porn and never spend a dime beyond your computer and internet connection. I know there are pay sites, but I am at a loss to understand why anyone would subscribe to them unless your needs are far from the mainstream.

I thought the interview was excellent.
Daniel
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:29 PM »
His solution to problems that porn might cause were to somehow educate people about how it's not real (or look down on people who might take any message away from porn at all, apparently, other than that sex is nice), but his own philosophy is that this can't involve any actual critique of the content of porn at all, lest people be lumped in with followers of pseudoscience and/or uptight religious morality.

But that isn't a reason for why they should have a problem with someone else watching that porn, which seemed to be the core subject, and what's usually why porn is made out to be such a big deal. It's about what other people do with it, and shouldn't be allowed to. Or you should have to register with the government over it, and be shamed for it, like in the UK.

Not liking a particular set of work, or measuring up different productions should be the same with porn as any other form of entertainment. It's fine not to like a movie, it's fine to be annoyed by it, and list all the reasons why it's crap. And then to look for better movies.

Offline JuniorSpaceman

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2016, 07:10:09 PM »
I've known two kinds of people opposed to porn: Where I used to live, a number of my friends felt that porn (all porn, they made no distinctions among types) objectifies women and this should not be allowed.

Have you asked any sex positive women who enjoy porn whether they get uncomfortable at some types of it? Because even though it would be good if you had the chance to, you don't have to - Cara was there representing that group of people, and was shouted down among all the giggling about how great it is that there is limitless access to any and all types of film and photos.

But that isn't a reason for why they should have a problem with someone else watching that porn, which seemed to be the core subject, and what's usually why porn is made out to be such a big deal. It's about what other people do with it, and shouldn't be allowed to. Or you should have to register with the government over it, and be shamed for it, like in the UK.

Not liking a particular set of work, or measuring up different productions should be the same with porn as any other form of entertainment. It's fine not to like a movie, it's fine to be annoyed by it, and list all the reasons why it's crap. And then to look for better movies.

Except if you do list the reasons why it's crap, you get put into the basket of either being a religious nut or an anti-sex radical. How about if we avoid the false dichotomy that you have to either side with 'ban all porn for everyone' or 'all porn is fine and if you can't deal with it, ignore it'.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2016, 08:23:14 PM »
I was pretty disappointed with the interview, too.  In particular, I found the guy condescending and dismissive of Cara and the legitimate points she made.  Cara expresses a concern among many sex-positive women: it's not a condemnation of all pornography or a declaration that all pornography is inherently exploitive, but a complaint that the vast majority of pornography they actually see does objectify women.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline ClauClauClaudia

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2016, 09:14:23 PM »
Agreed, Latinist. I've talked with female porn stars who I'm pretty comfortable don't feel exploited and are in a position to turn down work if they do. I'm not a prude and clearly neither is Cara. Like her, I'm interested in and not (at first hearing--need to research more) opposed to porn for those sexually attracted to children, that does not in any way involve actual children. There's plenty of room for nuance in a sex-positive worldview.

But Klein seemed to be saying, "Well, it's all about how you want to see it and what you choose to take away from it." And, no. Some interpretations are a lot more natural than others for a given video. Cara was the only one in the discussion who could talk as a woman about finding some of the standard porn tropes humiliating towards women, and her concerns were swept away with a pretty broad brush. I find the, well, money shot particularly interesting in that regard, because I think it is often there not to represent typical sex or typical fantasies, but to tell the audience the sex is real an industry-specific way, where other climaxes won't quite do. So are women being depicted in a humiliating way for a very technical reason that goes beyond general market whims? I think there's a lot to be said about that but it wasn't where Klein wanted the discussion to go.

I wouldn't mind hearing more 'soft sciences' interviews, but I'd hope the rogues would take a more critical stance than the guys did here.

I wish I had more to say about the rest of the episode. ;-) Easy science or fiction. Yay potential sepsis treatments. Yay supercapacitors.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 09:39:53 PM »
I rather enjoyed the interview.  There were a couple of points I have thought about since listening, that pertain to my own life, not necessarily directly related to pornography.  I somehow feel a little less alone is some respects.
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2016, 10:58:17 PM »
I won't offer to do it for this episode, but if someone reminds me in 2017 I'll start a google docs spreadsheet to track Science or Fiction wins/losses.  That way no one is stuck going through 51 episodes next December.
Do we know when this year's needs to be complete by? I'll start a thread under the General Discussion section. If someone has already been keeping track and offers to do it this year, that would be ideal. If nobody else volunteers, I guess I'll do it (but I won't have a chance until abound the 12/18).

I have sent Steve the 2016 Stats up to the most recent show. (About 15 hours ago)

No spoilers but there are still 3 rogues that can win for this year. Even the person who is last is not that far behind. A very close contest.

I kept a spreadsheet for this year with the results automatically updated each week.
I have it still set up for next year.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 11:03:45 PM by Tassie Dave »

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2016, 12:15:42 AM »
For the record, I also was somewhat annoyed at the way Cara was shot down during the interview. It seemed to go like this several times:

"But what about this perfectly legitimate concern?"
"Oh, that's not a concern at all. Let's talk about this instead."

Also, I wasn't entirely sure why this particular person was being interviewed on this particular show, apart from hurr hurr porn.

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2016, 12:35:22 AM »
For the record, I also was somewhat annoyed at the way Cara was shot down during the interview. It seemed to go like this several times:

"But what about this perfectly legitimate concern?"
"Oh, that's not a concern at all. Let's talk about this instead."

Also, I wasn't entirely sure why this particular person was being interviewed on this particular show, apart from hurr hurr porn.

I agree. Cara was making some great points. A lot of porn does show women being humiliated.

He made out as if the examples Cara raised were not mainstream enough to worry about and dismissed them too easily for my liking.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2016, 02:33:41 AM »

 A lot of porn does show women being humiliated.


They are adults.  They are being paid.
"The home of the brave and the land of the free; the less you know, the better off you'll be"

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Offline lubbarin

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2016, 02:57:56 AM »

 A lot of porn does show women being humiliated.


They are adults.  They are being paid.
I haven't listened yet, but I don't think the problem with women being humiliated in porn is a problem concerning the welfare of the actress necessarily.
Rather, it's an issue of teaching kids birds and bees in a fun house mirror. There seems to be something destructive about making the culture of brutality present in a large section of porn into the sexual expectations of a huge number of youngsters.
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #596
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2016, 03:28:02 AM »

 A lot of porn does show women being humiliated.


They are adults.  They are being paid.

That wasn't the point Cara was making. She was talking from the viewer's point of view.
That she as a viewer doesn't want to watch scenarios that she finds humiliating.

She wasn't saying it shouldn't be available, but that she finds it hard to find porn that doesn't contain women being humiliated.

Marty Klein seemed to imply that either, what Cara found humiliating wasn't, which is a subjective observation that he can't make for her or that most porn doesn't contain those scenes. Which may be true, but it is a significant proportion



 

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