Author Topic: PZ Myers once more claims that atheism is more than non-belief in deities  (Read 3183 times)

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Offline arthwollipot

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There's certainly plenty of room for disagreement, but let me just say that I self-identify as a humanist, and your description does not describe me. I don't feel that humanism degrades animals, nor do I think that I put "humans first" as you claim. Rather, I believe that moral and ethical structures derive from human culture and society.

You might want to reconsider what it is you think Humanism entails, or you put yourself at risk of strawmanning.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Clearly the label of humanist is a signal for, "I think I'm better than other atheists and have no sense of humor."
I agree with Clunn, which makes me feel all weird inside.

Offline arthwollipot

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Clearly the label of humanist is a signal for, "I think I'm better than other atheists and have no sense of humor."

Sorry if I took what was intended as a joke seriously. I never seem to know.

Offline GodSlayer

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Humanists are fucking speciesist pigs who degrade the value of possum life with their "people first" attitudes.

Edit -
No offense meant to pigs, who are of course beautiful and wonderful creatures.

just pigs, or all swine?
Quote from: Nietzsche
the inequality of rights is essential to the existence of any rights at all.--A right is a privilege.
Quote from: Ligotti
One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first crush.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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That fat sow can go pork herself!  ... though larger body types are completely normal and all forms have their own distinct appeal and grace... though I am in no way specializing anyone for their body type and shall of course refrain from doing so unless given affirmative consent to avoid mind raping anyone.
I agree with Clunn, which makes me feel all weird inside.

Offline GodSlayer

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triggud! plz don't use so many ellipses.
Quote from: Nietzsche
the inequality of rights is essential to the existence of any rights at all.--A right is a privilege.
Quote from: Ligotti
One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first crush.

Offline HanEyeAm

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Humans have some implicit moral imperatives that come from being social animals (some argue eusocial). So yeah, that's in our blood. That has nothing to do with being atheist though. Yes atheists have morals (generally) but it's because they are human, not because they don't believe in deities. It's like saying not believing in bigfoot has moral imperatives. Nope. Not really. Please shut up.
Agreed!

"Theism" doesn't mean the believer has any particular moral code or principles.

Same goes for "atheism."

But, yeah, we all have principles we live by, atheists and theists.

Offline 2397

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Theism means externalizing your morality, same as Google means outsourcing your memory.

Offline arthwollipot

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Theism means externalizing your morality, same as Google means outsourcing your memory.

The fact that you use Google does not mean that you can't remember things, and the fact that you are a theist doesn't mean that you can't internalise morality.

Offline Harry Black

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Theism means externalizing your morality, same as Google means outsourcing your memory.

The fact that you use Google does not mean that you can't remember things, and the fact that you are a theist doesn't mean that you can't internalise morality.
So it is kind of similar?

Offline arthwollipot

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Theism means externalizing your morality, same as Google means outsourcing your memory.

The fact that you use Google does not mean that you can't remember things, and the fact that you are a theist doesn't mean that you can't internalise morality.
So it is kind of similar?
In that both statements that 2397 made are misleading, yes.

Offline 2397

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Well, I didn't mean to imply they can't internalize morality. They're humans, they've got the same wetware as everyone else (everyone else being the minority, incidentally).

But if you believe that there are gods who dictate what is right and wrong, and you believe that it's right to adhere to what they dictate, then that makes it highly possible for you to point to what has been claimed to be their statements as the reason for why you hold certain positions. And makes it easier to avoid making a case that's not bound by those statements. To yourself or to others.

Offline arthwollipot

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Yes, but I think it's important to note that not a lot of people actually do that. Most people come to their own morality and then simply claim that it is in concert with God - that God wants what they already believe. They mould God's morality to match their own, not the other way around.

Offline Harry Black

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They do now. In places where they have the freedom to do so.
But people have also embarked on severe hardships and deprivation because they thought god wanted them to.
People didnt want to give their daughters to the Magdalene laundries, people domt want to honour kill their daughters.

Large groups of men dont particularly want to not be able to get married or have sex and try to resist those urges for their entire lives and then justify that via god.

In many (most?) Cases you are absolutely correct, but there are also contradictory cases.

Offline arthwollipot

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Of course. In this real live world, nothing is ever 100%. That's why I took pains to say "most people".

 

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