Author Topic: Trump and vaccines  (Read 793 times)

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Offline Crash

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 11:10:20 PM »
The Trump transition has reached a new low.

No, that was either when he handed over our foreign policy to Russia and the global oil oligarchs vis a vis Rex Tillerson or when he handed over the justice department to the openly racist and anti-voter Jeff Sessions.  Or when he gave the education department to noted anti-education advocate Betsy DeVos.  Or was it when he handed the Environmental Protection Agency to the farcically pro-earthquake Scott Pruitt?  Or the DOE to the person who has openly advocated for the destruction of (and forgotten the existence of) the DOE?  His anti-worker labor secretary?  The Secretary of Housing and Urban Development who has said he would be a liability in that roll, since he has no idea how to manage an agency?

Honestly, and I say this with empathy towards all of the people who will suffer and their families, if the worst thing that comes out of DJ Tinyhands' administration is anti-vaccination garbage then we got off light.

Climate change will ruin us, at a bare minimum.

Don't play the Horgan card. There are enough low points for everybody to choose. You forgot Rick Perry, Steve Bannon and the son in law. 
   Vaccine denial is indeed dangerous pseudoscience that could have catastrophic consequences.  RFK jr's only credential is that he's an antivax crackpot.

Offline Nosmas

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 08:27:55 PM »
I'm also interested in hearing the SGU discuss this. It's the second thing I thought of when I heard the news. Right after I piched myself again to make sure this isn't some strange dream.
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Offline Hanes

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 10:18:34 PM »
The Trump transition has reached a new low.

No, that was either when he handed over our foreign policy to Russia and the global oil oligarchs vis a vis Rex Tillerson or when he handed over the justice department to the openly racist and anti-voter Jeff Sessions.  Or when he gave the education department to noted anti-education advocate Betsy DeVos.  Or was it when he handed the Environmental Protection Agency to the farcically pro-earthquake Scott Pruitt?  Or the DOE to the person who has openly advocated for the destruction of (and forgotten the existence of) the DOE?  His anti-worker labor secretary?  The Secretary of Housing and Urban Development who has said he would be a liability in that roll, since he has no idea how to manage an agency?

Honestly, and I say this with empathy towards all of the people who will suffer and their families, if the worst thing that comes out of DJ Tinyhands' administration is anti-vaccination garbage then we got off light.

Climate change will ruin us, at a bare minimum.

Don't play the Horgan card. There are enough low points for everybody to choose. You forgot Rick Perry, Steve Bannon and the son in law. 
   Vaccine denial is indeed dangerous pseudoscience that could have catastrophic consequences.  RFK jr's only credential is that he's an antivax crackpot.

We can all agree he's bouncing along the bottom of the basket of deplorables. :P  His son-in-law is probably one of the least terrifying people in his administration, and that's damning with extremely faint praise.

Offline AndrewzC

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 08:06:23 AM »
Viewing all this from the UK with increasing horror, of course. It's worth asking why Trump - and more particularly those who are pulling his strings - are so anti-science.

My view is that it's part of a deliberate 'wedge' strategy - they want to drive a wedge between ordinary people and the scientific community so that they can, essentially, replace rational thought with their own beliefs and values. The best way to do that it to sew fear, uncertainty and doubt and both the anti-vaccine movement and climate change denial provide an excellent way of doing that as they are pushing at an open door.  So far as vaccines are concerned, people are suspicious of "big pharma" and Trump has majored on bringing the drugs companies under control, attacking excessive profits and so on. It's a small step from that to arguing that drugs are doing actual harm.

But as I say, their overall objective is, in essence, mind control and the best way to achieve that it to work on and inflame base emotions like fear, anger and hatred. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that members of his team of jump on the anti-vacs bandwagon are perfectly happy for their own chilren to be vaccinated. That's not the point.

I can see why, until the last ep at least, the rogues have been reluctant to tackle Trump - it looks as though he'll be a total disaster but until he starts trying to implement actual policies and appointments are finalsed we have little to go on and I think there's a danger of over reacting.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 12:18:56 PM »
Viewing all this from the UK with increasing horror, of course. It's worth asking why Trump - and more particularly those who are pulling his strings - are so anti-science.

No no no.  Nobody's pulling his strings.  He's just that crazy.  The American people collectively asked themselves, "Corrupt devil we know, or crazy devil we don't?"  He's not a stooge like George W. was.  He's an uncontrolled loose cannon who believes in conspiracy theories.
I agree with Clunn, which makes me feel all weird inside.

Offline AndrewzC

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 12:44:48 PM »
Point taken. Perhaps a better analogy would be an air dancer?

The Exxon and Goldman execs in his cabinet will let him blow air out of all his orificies while they get on with chanelling as much public money as possible into their pockets and deregulating everything they can think of to deregulate.

Offline mindme

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 01:04:43 PM »
I also like his anti-labor secretary is very pro immigration. Immigrants "happily" work for shit wages at his fast food restaurants and put up with the sexual harassment that's out of control at his chains.

http://www.grubstreet.com/2017/01/most-female-carls-jr-workers-report-sexual-harassment.html

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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2017, 01:54:07 PM »
I also like his anti-labor secretary is very pro immigration. Immigrants "happily" work for shit wages at his fast food restaurants and put up with the sexual harassment that's out of control at his chains.

http://www.grubstreet.com/2017/01/most-female-carls-jr-workers-report-sexual-harassment.html


I'd like to see how that compares to every other restaurant chain in america.  Most of the quoted complaints are related to customer's behavior.  I have a hard time thinking that customers at Carl's Jr are particularly worse than those at McDonalds.  Not to mention that sexual harassment of women in the restaurant industry is, well, ubiquitous.  Or so I'm told by the women I know who have work in the industry. 

In short, its fair to complain about his labor practices but the sexual harassment stuff is pretty BS.

According to Slate, Carl's Junior is actually better on that score than the industry.

Quote
In what will come as no shock to any woman who has waited tables or tended bar, a new report on sexual harassment in the restaurant industry has found that 90 percent of female restaurant workers have experienced sexual harassment on the job.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/08/sexual_harassment_in_restaurants_waitresses_are_sexually_harassed_by_co.html



« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 01:56:44 PM by Ah.hell »

Online Sawyer

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2017, 04:50:27 PM »
I've been struggling to put my finger on exactly why the RFK Jr. assignment bothers me more than Scott Pruitt or Rex Tillerson, because I'm with Hanes when it comes to the overall impact.  Even a single city getting flooded 50 years from now a bigger blow to civilization than a few hundred dead babies.  I think part of what bothers me is that at least the climate denier camp has some vague grasp of technology, economics, and risk analysis, and perhaps even some self-awareness of their own bullshit PR tactics.  They may overestimate how likely future technologies will bail us out when things get really bad, they may underestimate the capabilities of the US shifting to an alternative energy economy right now, they may dismiss a large chunk of published research coming from academia, but at least the people in leadership positions know deep down that these are questions worth thinking about.  They don't categorically deny that engineering is informed by physics and chemistry.  That strained connection with modern science within the climate denier community does not appear to exist AT ALL with vaccine deniers.  They can't even fake their way through a Bio 101 discussion.  Their version of "clean vaccines" are far more pathetic than "clean coal", because at least clean coal actually generates electricity (good luck making vaccines that work without adjuvants and preservatives).  Their ignorance is more infuriating to me because they aren't struggling to understand a future challenge for human beings to conquer (like climate change), but with a problem that was already conquered 50 years ago.

I also have concerns about the public health community in general, which I think has been consistently screwed over and unappreciated by the US over the past few decades.  I can't imagine what it's like to go from merely being unappreciated by your fellow citizens to the federal government destroying your life's work.  Rumors about Trump liking to urinate on stuff may be false, but RFK Jr. has shown no restraint at pissing all over the scientific and medical communities.

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2017, 05:15:30 PM »
I think it's also more difficult for us as individuals to "see" climate impact and understand what it really means, but vaccines are more part of our daily experience (at least more so than climate change anyway).
I think also the evidence for vaccines has been settled on for a much longer time and general acceptance of anthropogenic climate change is fairly recent.
I say this because I'm having a similar visceral reaction.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2017, 05:19:57 PM »
Yeah, the science and evidence of vaccines is much easier for a layman to wrap their head around than climate change.   

That being said, I'm not worried about the RFK thing yet, what pull will this panel have in the end?  Cabinet heads on the other hand, actually have pull.  I've read rumors that they didn't so much in Obama's administration though.  Its claimed he had much more of a "kitchen cabinet" set up. 

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 05:36:59 PM »
Yeah, the science and evidence of vaccines is much easier for a layman to wrap their head around than climate change.   

That being said, I'm not worried about the RFK thing yet, what pull will this panel have in the end?  Cabinet heads on the other hand, actually have pull.  I've read rumors that they didn't so much in Obama's administration though.  Its claimed he had much more of a "kitchen cabinet" set up.
Trump desperately requires outsourcing so i think they will have undue influence.
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 06:01:25 PM »
The Trump transition has reached a new low.

No, that was either when he handed over our foreign policy to Russia and the global oil oligarchs vis a vis Rex Tillerson or when he handed over the justice department to the openly racist and anti-voter Jeff Sessions.  Or when he gave the education department to noted anti-education advocate Betsy DeVos.  Or was it when he handed the Environmental Protection Agency to the farcically pro-earthquake Scott Pruitt?  Or the DOE to the person who has openly advocated for the destruction of (and forgotten the existence of) the DOE?  His anti-worker labor secretary?  The Secretary of Housing and Urban Development who has said he would be a liability in that roll, since he has no idea how to manage an agency?

Honestly, and I say this with empathy towards all of the people who will suffer and their families, if the worst thing that comes out of DJ Tinyhands' administration is anti-vaccination garbage then we got off light.

Climate change will ruin us, at a bare minimum.

I agree-- the consequences of Trump's other positions have much more dire consequences than a vaccination panel. It is significant, though, in that it represents a rejection of science on a non-partisan issue.

Offline Pusher Robot

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Re: Trump and vaccines
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 09:09:26 PM »
Yeah, the science and evidence of vaccines is much easier for a layman to wrap their head around than climate change.   

That being said, I'm not worried about the RFK thing yet, what pull will this panel have in the end?  Cabinet heads on the other hand, actually have pull.  I've read rumors that they didn't so much in Obama's administration though.  Its claimed he had much more of a "kitchen cabinet" set up.

FWIW at this point there is no commission and Kennedy has no job.  The only source for this news was Kennedy himself, and the transition team denied that any such decision was made.
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