Author Topic: Acupuncture for low back pain  (Read 1502 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jt512

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1267
    • jt512
Re: Acupuncture for low back pain
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2017, 09:42:39 PM »
Moreover, for OA pain, the trim and fill analysis shows that publication bias could plausibly account for two-thirds of the reported effect size.  The residual effect, about .2, is small, and on the order of what we'd expect due to bias from the acupuncturist not being blinded to the treatment (which may be an unavoidable limitation).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 10:14:56 PM by jt512 »

Offline HanEyeAm

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Acupuncture for low back pain
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2017, 11:21:43 PM »
Moreover, for OA pain, the trim and fill analysis shows that publication bias could plausibly account for two-thirds of the reported effect size.  The residual effect, about .2, is small, and on the order of what we'd expect due to bias from the acupuncturist not being blinded to the treatment (which may be an unavoidable limitation).

Considerable effect, for sure!

Offline arthwollipot

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4729
  • Observer of Phenomena
Re: Acupuncture for low back pain
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 01:35:36 AM »
I'm sorry if my approach contributed to you feeling dismissed. You certainly have the right to your opinion on what is considered good or poor evidence and coming up with your own definition of what that means to you. Please feel free to share your definition if you like.

"Share my definition"? No, I don't argue by dictionary. I use English words and assume that most fluent English speakers will know what I mean. Unless the person I am conversing with is a needlessly pedantic nitpicker, that assumption is generally warranted.

Offline SQ the ΣΛ/IGMд

  • Atheist extraordinaire
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Pondering the cosmos since 1969
Re: Acupuncture for low back pain
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 01:36:40 PM »
The hate on acupuncture is way strong on SGU. More than deserved I think.

As I mentioned on the infant acupuncture thread, there are recent meta-analyses published in reputable journals (or at least by reputable publishers) that support acupuncture:

http://aim.bmj.com/content/early/2016/07/08/acupmed-2015-010989.abstract
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep30675
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28115321
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27852100
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27764035

Chronic pain is a funny thing... often with no obvious etiology and always subjective. Something works, for many, and whether it is placebo, touch, kind word from the acupuncturist, an NOS body response to needles, etc., there is something worth exploring.

But, yeah, meridians are butkis.

Curious what your thoughts are on bee venom acupuncture.
New one to me!

BTW, I don't administer, promote, research, or make $ from accupuncture. Some patients of mine have used it and colleagues administer it or are fans. I may help a MD colleague who practices it (very small part of his work) write a grant proposal for examining accupuncture for neuropathic pain. Neither of us believe in the meridian stuff but note that patients who have significant neuropathic pain can respond well to it. Trust me, if we do it, we will have biostatistical support, use multiple control conditions, and make it as rigorous as possible. Seeing patients suffer chronic pain: absolutely horrible.

As Billzbub mentioned earlier, I want to know, at the core, why accupuncture and sham often have positive effects. I suspect that eventually the needles and meridian stuff will be shed, sent to the medical history books, and whatever common therapeutic element will become front-and-center in future treatments.

That being said, I'm interested in whether you think this is a viable option for those seeking pain relief using alternative methods. Once you read up on it a bit, I'd be interested in knowing your position based on the research and how it either coincides or conflicts with your current opinion of traditional acupuncture.
"That's ridiculous, spooks. That's silly!" ~ The Tin Woodsman - The Wizard of Oz ~

"Like it or not, we are stuck with science.  We had better make the best of it." ~ Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World ~

Offline HanEyeAm

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Acupuncture for low back pain
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2017, 04:04:57 PM »
The hate on acupuncture is way strong on SGU. More than deserved I think.

As I mentioned on the infant acupuncture thread, there are recent meta-analyses published in reputable journals (or at least by reputable publishers) that support acupuncture:

http://aim.bmj.com/content/early/2016/07/08/acupmed-2015-010989.abstract
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep30675
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28115321
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27852100
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27764035

Chronic pain is a funny thing... often with no obvious etiology and always subjective. Something works, for many, and whether it is placebo, touch, kind word from the acupuncturist, an NOS body response to needles, etc., there is something worth exploring.

But, yeah, meridians are butkis.

Curious what your thoughts are on bee venom acupuncture.
New one to me!

BTW, I don't administer, promote, research, or make $ from accupuncture. Some patients of mine have used it and colleagues administer it or are fans. I may help a MD colleague who practices it (very small part of his work) write a grant proposal for examining accupuncture for neuropathic pain. Neither of us believe in the meridian stuff but note that patients who have significant neuropathic pain can respond well to it. Trust me, if we do it, we will have biostatistical support, use multiple control conditions, and make it as rigorous as possible. Seeing patients suffer chronic pain: absolutely horrible.

As Billzbub mentioned earlier, I want to know, at the core, why accupuncture and sham often have positive effects. I suspect that eventually the needles and meridian stuff will be shed, sent to the medical history books, and whatever common therapeutic element will become front-and-center in future treatments.

That being said, I'm interested in whether you think this is a viable option for those seeking pain relief using alternative methods. Once you read up on it a bit, I'd be interested in knowing your position based on the research and how it either coincides or conflicts with your current opinion of traditional acupuncture.

I'm sorry, SQ, I really have no knowledge of bee venom acupuncture or apitherapy. I took a quick look and really couldn't find anything that jumped out at me other than a systematic review of bee venom acupuncture for rheumatoid arthritis in BMJ Open (they only found one adequate, low-quality evidence RCT). Wish I could offer more. Maybe someone else on SGU is able up to their bees knees in apitherapy and can provide info.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 11:03:26 PM by HanEyeAm »

 

personate-rain