Author Topic: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?  (Read 1209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline estockly

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4404
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2017, 11:10:16 AM »
Just want to point out that the name of the airport is pretty cool:

John Wayne Airport

just up the street in Burbank we have the Bob Hope Airport, not nearly as bad-ass.
Your mileage may vary.

Offline nameofthewave

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 12:08:53 PM »
If he had his copilot Chewy with him, this wouldn't have happened.

Offline jt512

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
    • jt512
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2017, 03:15:46 PM »
Looking at those pictures of the coloring of the runway and taxiway next to it. I can kind of see how you could mistake the two, if you had never landed there before and not looked at the diagram.

Seriously?

Quote
I liken this to my driving into Chicago maybe three times a year...

Don't.  He was pilot-in-command of an aircraft.  Totally different standard.

Offline Fast Eddie B

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2294
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2017, 05:34:29 PM »

Don't.  He was pilot-in-command of an aircraft.  Totally different standard.

One commonality is both are "piloted" by humans.

Roughly 80% of aircraft accidents are caused by human error.

First Google hit from the BBC:

"In fact, pilot error is the leading cause of commercial airline accidents, with close to 80% percent of accidents caused by pilot error, according to Boeing. The other 20% are mainly due to faulty equipment and unsafe, weather-related flying conditions."

Another way to look at it is how might pilots feel if 80% of accidents were NOT pilot error, and hence unavoidable even with best practices. THAT would worry me more than the real statistics.
"And what it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet" - Alanis Morisette
• • •
"I doubt that!" - James Randi

Offline PatrickG

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2017, 08:20:04 PM »
The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot I prepare for any airport that I fly into: I study runway configuration, what to expect, frequencies, etc. John Wayne (KSNA) is a simple airport with only 2 parallel runways.  If you are cleared to land for 20L you verify that you are on the left of the big 20R. The weather was clear, and it is very easy to see. Fold has likely been there before because its close to where he lives.

If there is a (big) airplane below in front of you in the flight path, you go around instead of land: someone must have made a mistake.

Han Solo should not fly solo anymore.

Offline jt512

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
    • jt512
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2017, 08:26:44 PM »
The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot I prepare for any airport that I fly into: I study runway configuration, what to expect, frequencies, etc. John Wayne (KSNA) is a simple airport with only 2 parallel runways.  If you are cleared to land for 20L you verify that you are on the left of the big 20R. The weather was clear, and it is very easy to see. Fold has likely been there before because its close to where he lives.

If there is a (big) airplane below in front of you in the flight path, you go around instead of land: someone must have made a mistake.

Finally, someone with some sense. 

There have been some pretty scary posts from some supposedly experienced pilots in this thread.

Offline Fast Eddie B

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2294
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2017, 08:46:37 PM »
The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot...

Ask yourself what sets you apart from the professional airline crews and military pilots who have on occasion landed on the wrong runway, on a taxiway or even at the wrong airport. I might suggest it's hubris to think that it could never happen to you.

It is very often the least experienced pilots that are so quick to pass judgment on other pilots. But certainly one can try to learn from these incidents, and hone one's procedures so as to minimize the chances of it happening to you - and I commend PatrickG for having good, safe procedures for airport familiarization that can only help.

This one was particularly tragic: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/us/28crash.html

"And what it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet" - Alanis Morisette
• • •
"I doubt that!" - James Randi

Offline Fast Eddie B

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2294
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2017, 08:51:13 PM »
An anecdote I posted to an aviation forum related to this incident.

Years ago I was taxiing at an unfamiliar airport - possibly Ft. Lauderdale Executive.

I think I was trying to find a shop I had not been to before.

All was going well well until I came to a stop sign (!). I had somehow left a ramp on a road, not a taxiway. I managed to get turned around and groped my way back to where airplanes were supposed to be! No harm, no foul and nobody said anything so I went on with my life.

I only mention this because I do not recall the white lines, rather than yellow taxiway lines, ever rising to the level of consciousness. Not excusing Ford's transgression, but I know from experience how blind one can be to disconfirming evidence once one sets off on a course of action.
"And what it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet" - Alanis Morisette
• • •
"I doubt that!" - James Randi

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 10658
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2017, 08:57:12 AM »
So I read through all of this and only have the following to say:

The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot I prepare for any airport that I fly into: I study runway configuration, what to expect, frequencies, etc. John Wayne (KSNA) is a simple airport with only 2 parallel runways.  If you are cleared to land for 20L you verify that you are on the left of the big 20R. The weather was clear, and it is very easy to see. Fold has likely been there before because its close to where he lives.

If there is a (big) airplane below in front of you in the flight path, you go around instead of land: someone must have made a mistake.

Han Solo should not fly solo anymore.

This ^

Here's why.  I agree with most posters completely that you CAN mistake a taxiway for a runway and it CAN happen that you mistakenly land on one (in the daytime.  Night it's not really possible to mistake one for the other, when they're properly lit)

However, when you say on the radio 'hey, was that 737 suppose to be on the runway i landed on?' then we have a problem.  You DO NOT EVER land on a 'runway' that has an aircraft behind you when landing. (in front of you is a slightly different story).  You don't fly over the top of a 737 and land past it.   The first rule of landing is that if anything is wrong or out of place, go around and try again.

If there is an aircraft in front of you on the runway and you can see it is accelerating, you CAN land behind it provided it's safe in your judgement.  Flying over the top of a plane and landing, just no. Don't ever do that.

ETA:  There is no airport in the US that I'm aware of where you fly over the top of stopped aircraft to execute a landing.  Certainly you can fly next to them as they're holding short of the runway, but you don't fly over the top of them.  In this case, I agree that the 737 was likely holding short of 20L waiting for Ford to land.  It would then cross to the large runway and takeoff.  But the rule still applies.  If there's a plane parked on what you think is a runway, you DONT FRIGGIN LAND.
#notarealskeptic

Offline jt512

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
    • jt512
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2017, 02:40:36 PM »
So I read through all of this and only have the following to say:

The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot I prepare for any airport that I fly into: I study runway configuration, what to expect, frequencies, etc. John Wayne (KSNA) is a simple airport with only 2 parallel runways.  If you are cleared to land for 20L you verify that you are on the left of the big 20R. The weather was clear, and it is very easy to see. Fold has likely been there before because its close to where he lives.

If there is a (big) airplane below in front of you in the flight path, you go around instead of land: someone must have made a mistake.

Han Solo should not fly solo anymore.

This ^

Here's why.  I agree with most posters completely that you CAN mistake a taxiway for a runway and it CAN happen that you mistakenly land on one (in the daytime.  Night it's not really possible to mistake one for the other, when they're properly lit)

However, when you say on the radio 'hey, was that 737 suppose to be on the runway i landed on?' then we have a problem.  You DO NOT EVER land on a 'runway' that has an aircraft behind you when landing. (in front of you is a slightly different story).  You don't fly over the top of a 737 and land past it.   The first rule of landing is that if anything is wrong or out of place, go around and try again.

If there is an aircraft in front of you on the runway and you can see it is accelerating, you CAN land behind it provided it's safe in your judgement.  Flying over the top of a plane and landing, just no. Don't ever do that.

ETA:  There is no airport in the US that I'm aware of where you fly over the top of stopped aircraft to execute a landing.  Certainly you can fly next to them as they're holding short of the runway, but you don't fly over the top of them.  In this case, I agree that the 737 was likely holding short of 20L waiting for Ford to land.  It would then cross to the large runway and takeoff.  But the rule still applies.  If there's a plane parked on what you think is a runway, you DONT FRIGGIN LAND.

Hallelujah.  Hopefully, glorious 4500-hour CFI is reading

Offline Fast Eddie B

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2294
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2017, 03:12:24 PM »
I'm still here. Though about 6,700 hour total time over about 42 years with no accidents or violations - yet! And "glorious" is not a word I'd ever use to describe me. "Competent " is about the most I aspire to.

I think I'm being straw-manned a bit here, as if I'm saying its no big deal. Ford's screw-up IS a big deal, and will almost certainly have consequences.

I was addressing those who find such mistakes inconceivable or think they are such superb aviators it could never happen to them.

Some further info: Ford missed at least one radio call to change frequencies, sounded a little slurred and repeatedly called himself a helicopter. This, plus overflying the jet and landing on the taxiway all add up to something being a little - or a lot- off that day. Could it indicate a cognitive decline? Sure. But such mistakes can also be attributable to fatigue. That's no excuse - pilots learn to monitor themselves and to avoid situations where fatigue and/or stress can combine to lead to major mistakes.

Anyway, I hope that clears up my position.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 08:03:11 AM by Fast Eddie B »
"And what it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet" - Alanis Morisette
• • •
"I doubt that!" - James Randi

Offline PatrickG

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2017, 05:32:03 PM »
The mistake of landing on a taxiway is pretty close to unforgivable IMHO.  As a private pilot...

Ask yourself what sets you apart from the professional airline crews and military pilots who have on occasion landed on the wrong runway, on a taxiway or even at the wrong airport. I might suggest it's hubris to think that it could never happen to you.

It is very often the least experienced pilots that are so quick to pass judgment on other pilots. But certainly one can try to learn from these incidents, and hone one's procedures so as to minimize the chances of it happening to you - and I commend PatrickG for having good, safe procedures for airport familiarization that can only help.

This one was particularly tragic: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/us/28crash.html
I'm not saying that it could not happen to me, just that if it would, I really should give up flying. Especially if I first buzzed over a B737....

Straightforward technology could easily help avoid this type of mistakes. The Garmin glass cockpit in the C172 that I fly has 'SafeTaxi' that shows the exact position on the airport diagram. But that doesn't give warnings unfortunately. It could do fully automatic outlier detection, e.g. if the airplane is not lined up on a runway while close to the ground. Or it could warn for a suspected takeoff from a taxiway, simply by checking location and speed. That might even have avoided that tragic crash where the pilot took off from a too short runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 10658
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2017, 09:04:29 PM »

I'm not saying that it could not happen to me, just that if it would, I really should give up flying. Especially if I first buzzed over a B737....

Straightforward technology could easily help avoid this type of mistakes. The Garmin glass cockpit in the C172 that I fly has 'SafeTaxi' that shows the exact position on the airport diagram. But that doesn't give warnings unfortunately. It could do fully automatic outlier detection, e.g. if the airplane is not lined up on a runway while close to the ground. Or it could warn for a suspected takeoff from a taxiway, simply by checking location and speed. That might even have avoided that tragic crash where the pilot took off from a too short runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anyone who says it couldn't happen to them is lying :)  I wish the A320 had cool stuff like that in it.  The best thing we've added is an ipad with aircraft position depicted on my Jepp charts.

I'm still here. Though about 6,700 hour total time over about 42 years with no accidents or violations - yet! And "glorious" is not a word I'd ever use to describe me. "Competent " is about the most I aspire to.

I think I'm being straw-manned a bit here, as if I'm saying its no big deal. Ford's screw-up IS a big deal, and will almost certainly have consequences.

I was addressing those who find such mistakes inconceivable or think they are such superb aviators it could never happen to them.

Some further info: Ford missed at least one radio call to change frequencies, sounded a little slurred and repeatedly called himself a helicopter. This, plus overflying the jet and landing on the taxiway all add up to something being a little - or a lot- off that day. Could it indicate a cognitive decline? Sure. But such mistakes can also be attributable to fatigue. That's no excuse - pilots learn to monitor themselves and to avoid situations where fatigue and/or stres can combine to lead to major mistakes.

Anyway, I hope that clears up my position.

I think so, I did read it as 'no big deal' as I was skimming through, and I thought that the cumulative problems really was where it is at.  Could I see someone mistakenly landing on a taxiway? Yep. Missing a frequency change? Yep, that happens so regularly that it's almost a non-event anymore.  But not overflying a 737 and landing.  That means someone was seriously not paying attention.

Either way, I actually miss flying around in small planes.  I'd probably be a menace to traffic if I had to do it right now.

#notarealskeptic

Offline jt512

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
    • jt512
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2017, 09:12:59 PM »
But not overflying a 737 and landing.  That means someone was seriously not paying attention.

I think he was paying attention.  He knew he overflew the 737.  What he didn't know, apparently, was that he shouldn't have.  To me, that indicates that he doesn't have the judgment to have a pilot's license.  Interesting comment above, though, about the radio mistakes and the slurred speech.  Cognitive decline?  Stroke?

Offline Fast Eddie B

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2294
Re: Why is Harrison Ford still flying?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 08:07:54 AM »

Either way, I actually miss flying around in small planes.

I don't know where you live but make it to North Georgia/East Tennessee and I'd be happy to take you up in my Sky Arrow!

You can even take the controls for as long as you like!

It's absolutely gorgeous country from the air!
"And what it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet" - Alanis Morisette
• • •
"I doubt that!" - James Randi

 

personate-rain