Author Topic: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)  (Read 2712 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johnny Slick

  • "Goddammit, Slick."
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11990
  • Fake Ass Skeptic
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2017, 10:47:01 PM »
r/iamverysmart
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Online Andrew Clunn

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 15173
  • Aspiring Super Villain
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2017, 10:56:10 PM »
Isn't the assertion that understanding quantum forces will give us the ability to manipulate them in any meaningful way a bit of an assumption?  There's also the assumption that making such changes would allow for effects that impact the macro world.  It's not impossible that we will hit an upper limit to what extent the universe can be manipulated and engineered.
Banned from both Hacker News and the xkcd forum.

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2017, 11:16:35 PM »
Isn't the assertion that understanding quantum forces will give us the ability to manipulate them in any meaningful way a bit of an assumption?  There's also the assumption that making such changes would allow for effects that impact the macro world.  It's not impossible that we will hit an upper limit to what extent the universe can be manipulated and engineered.

(1)
See dwave quantum computer.


(2)
We occupy a probabilistic nature, as far as science goes...
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Online Andrew Clunn

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 15173
  • Aspiring Super Villain
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2017, 11:27:10 PM »
Isn't the assertion that understanding quantum forces will give us the ability to manipulate them in any meaningful way a bit of an assumption?  There's also the assumption that making such changes would allow for effects that impact the macro world.  It's not impossible that we will hit an upper limit to what extent the universe can be manipulated and engineered.

(1)
See dwave quantum computer.


(2)
We occupy a probabilistic nature, as far as science goes...

I'm not arguing that we won't be able to break prime based private key encryption.  I'm saying that knowing the odds is quite different from being able to change the odds.  Quantum fluctuations happen all the time, yet Newtonian physics is fairly stable.  Emergence and entropy prevent them from having any larger impact.

Quantum computing will no doubt enable novel means of running algorithms, but why should this then allow us to alter the nature or structure of the universe?
Banned from both Hacker News and the xkcd forum.

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2017, 02:19:51 AM »

I'm not arguing that we won't be able to break prime based private key encryption.  I'm saying that knowing the odds is quite different from being able to change the odds.  Quantum fluctuations happen all the time, yet Newtonian physics is fairly stable.  Emergence and entropy prevent them from having any larger impact.

Quantum computing will no doubt enable novel means of running algorithms, but why should this then allow us to alter the nature or structure of the universe?


I was priorly referring to your prior quote:

Quote from: Andrew
Isn't the assertion that understanding quantum forces will give us the ability to manipulate them in any meaningful way a bit of an assumption?  There's also the assumption that making such changes would allow for effects that impact the macro world.  It's not impossible that we will hit an upper limit to what extent the universe can be manipulated and engineered.

The above quote of yours is invalid, as quantum computing already enables the manipulation of quantum forces, such that protein folding and other applications have already been performed.
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Offline Caffiene

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4768
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2017, 02:49:34 AM »
Yes, atheists tend to posit that gods are 'entirely' unlikely.
I have observed an atheist (Richard Dawkins) that disregarded the possibility of form of God similar to what is defined in the original post:

There is nothing in there that sounds remotely similar to your definition of god. The only god he talks about is an intelligent creator who exists a-priori before the existence of the rules of physics and evolution. The criteria of a) creation (or something other than ones own future self), b) intelligence of sufficient magnitude to design and implement all of the physical world, and c) a-priori existence, are all differences from your definition. I would say those criteria are major and significant differences which make it not at all similar to your definition.

You have, as stated, equivocated your definition of god with a notably dissimilar definition. The case for dismissing the god that Dawkins is talking about is almost entirely based on the parts of the god which are not included in your definition.
[Lurk Mode Disengage]

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2017, 03:45:44 AM »
Yes, atheists tend to posit that gods are 'entirely' unlikely.
I have observed an atheist (Richard Dawkins) that disregarded the possibility of form of God similar to what is defined in the original post:

There is nothing in there that sounds remotely similar to your definition of god. The only god he talks about is an intelligent creator who exists a-priori before the existence of the rules of physics and evolution. The criteria of a) creation (or something other than ones own future self), b) intelligence of sufficient magnitude to design and implement all of the physical world, and c) a-priori existence, are all differences from your definition. I would say those criteria are major and significant differences which make it not at all similar to your definition.

You have, as stated, equivocated your definition of god with a notably dissimilar definition. The case for dismissing the god that Dawkins is talking about is almost entirely based on the parts of the god which are not included in your definition.

Refreshing.

Albeit, if you had bothered to observe the sources amidst the original post, your would probably have seen that the original post's definition, is merely one of a sequence, that includes a similar form to the God targeted in the video sequence:



PROBABLE HIGHLY-CAPABLE NON-OMNISCIENT GODS
**(1)** Man-made ‘General artificial intelligence’ (The brain based software we invent [that shall probably exceed humans in the cognitive task sequence, not merely individual cognitive tasks/cognitive task groups as they do now]).
**(2)** Intelligence that EVOLVES in our own simulations to become God-like (ie they create universes, or ‘general artificial intelligence’-like programs).
**(3)** The non-omnipotent, non-infinite Gods (human like?) that created our universe stemming from a similar way, where we simulate more and more detailed universes via **(4)** — constrained paths. (eg illustris)
**(4)** Mankind; for mankind shall perhaps promptly possess God bound capabilities, via **(1)** and **(2)**.

From the source below, as linked in the original post.
https://medium.com/@uni.omniscient.x/god-is-probably-quite-real-a466e9f24a0b#.5tt862gvq
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:15:35 AM by ProgrammingGodJordan »
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Online Andrew Clunn

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 15173
  • Aspiring Super Villain
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2017, 06:48:33 AM »
We're you referring to understanding the (previously odd) relationship between temperature and protein folding speed?  I am unaware that there's any practical application that's come from that.  Please provide a link so I can learn about it.
Banned from both Hacker News and the xkcd forum.

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2017, 06:56:46 AM »
We're you  referring to understanding the (previously odd) relationship between temperature and protein folding speed?  I am unaware that there's any practical application that's come from that.  Please provide a link so I can learn about it.


(1)
I don't understand your initial part of your query. (as underlined above)

(2)
Use google to search for quantum computing applications.
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Online Andrew Clunn

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 15173
  • Aspiring Super Villain
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2017, 07:30:01 AM »
Auto correct is a birch. 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein-folding/

Duck duck go for life.

When you make claims on this forum it falls to you to be able to back them up.
Banned from both Hacker News and the xkcd forum.

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2017, 06:41:00 PM »
Auto correct is a birch. 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein-folding/

Duck duck go for life.

When you make claims on this forum it falls to you to be able to back them up.

I tend to avoid claims.
Anyway, I had long mentioned 'protein folding', and 'quantum computing'. (See reply #34)
The above constitutes public knowledge.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:43:13 PM by ProgrammingGodJordan »
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Offline Henning

  • Official Forum Artist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4893
  • Mad "Liker"
    • Anomalina
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2017, 10:14:30 AM »
Yup. By your definition, humans will soon be rewarding themselves the title, "minimally capable god". I don't think anyone here disagrees with you that humans will inevitably create AI. We're just wondering, why call us "gods" when "AI programmers" is more accurate? Do you like flowery language better?

The power over life and death is another shared property of humans and gods. If someone came along and said the power over life and death is all that is sufficient to call oneself a god, well then, we have plenty of gods in our prisons and militaries. We have been gods since before we were human. Why redefine god so loosely though? What's the point?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. -- Hitchens.

Offline ProgrammingGodJordan

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • I am the creator/founder of "nonbeliefism.com".
    • "Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2017, 05:10:30 PM »
Yup. By your definition, humans will soon be rewarding themselves the title, "minimally capable god". I don't think anyone here disagrees with you that humans will inevitably create AI. We're just wondering, why call us "gods" when "AI programmers" is more accurate? Do you like flowery language better?

The power over life and death is another shared property of humans and gods. If someone came along and said the power over life and death is all that is sufficient to call oneself a god, well then, we have plenty of gods in our prisons and militaries. We have been gods since before we were human. Why redefine god so loosely though? What's the point?

When we generate sufficiently advanced artificial intelligence (if we don't go extinct) we then become highly capable gods, rather than merely minimally capable gods.

We are minimally capable Gods, as we may generate smarter instances of ourselves, through learning tasks. (our brains can update for enhanced knowledge, through old fashioned task learning)

I don't detect any data showing that mankind 'has power over life and death'.
"Non beliefism" is probably atheism's successor. ("Non beliefism" = Atheism minus Theism)
I am the creator/founder of "non beliefism":
http://nonbeliefism.com
 
 
I am a casual body-builder & software engineer:
https://www.facebook.com/ProgrammingGodJordan

Offline Caffiene

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4768
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2017, 05:48:09 PM »
Albeit, if you had bothered to observe the sources amidst the original post, your would probably have seen that the original post's definition, is merely one of a sequence, that includes a similar form to the God targeted in the video sequence

Which is exactly the problem. Having a sequence of definitions which you switch between without explanation is equivocation. You arent matching the definition of anybody you are trying to communicate to, and the points you make are incoherent because they rely on multiple conflicting definitions at once.

We were talking about whether atheists dismiss gods in general, which includes your definition of minimally capable god. Switching to a seperate definition of a highly capable god and saying that atheists reject that possibility says nothing about your original contention that atheists tend to dismiss all gods (not to mention one data point of Richard Dawkins is not a significant defense of the tendencies of atheists in general). You have a definition of a minimally capable god and the contention you were defending is that atheists reject the possibility of that minimally capable god existing, else you must concede that other people dont agree or recognise your overall definition of god (ie, that your "minimally capable god" is missing elements that others consider fundamental to god status)

You also stated that "The instance that we are Gods, does not require an understanding of the simulation hypothesis", where in fact the latter definitions you just brought up are pretty much all of the elements involved in understanding the simulation hypothesis. Its hardly surprising that I disregarded the definitions which you specifically said werent required for the conversation.

It still seems to me that you are equivocating; in fact it now seems you are equivocating to the extent that you are confusing yourself and having trouble remembering what point you are trying to make.
[Lurk Mode Disengage]

Offline Henning

  • Official Forum Artist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4893
  • Mad "Liker"
    • Anomalina
Re: Humans are minimally capable Gods (written by an atheist)
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2017, 11:12:36 PM »
When we generate sufficiently advanced artificial intelligence (if we don't go extinct) we then become highly capable gods artificial intelligence programmers, rather than merely minimally capable gods artificial intelligence programmers.

Okay...? So?
The point is still back there where you left it...
What makes "gods" a better descriptor of what we are/will be than "AI programmers". Do you just like flowery language better?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. -- Hitchens.

 

personate-rain
personate-rain