Author Topic: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?  (Read 547 times)

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Online Desert Fox

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Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« on: March 12, 2017, 09:28:47 AM »
As people might know, there is a scandal in Ireland with infants and children up to age three having been found in a septic tank under a Catholic "charity."

Trying to come up with a link that seems relatively objective
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/corless-says-many-mass-graves-likely-at-mother-and-baby-homes-1.3007060

A poster on another board made a claim:
Quote
So the bodies are between 1925 and 1960?

Everyone does realize that during this period burying infants and those under 3 years old in a mass grave was normal right?

Is that actually true? I have walked graveyards and could swear I have seen infant and baby graves from that time frame.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2017, 10:43:08 AM »
Yes. Its true.
Edit:
Sorry!!!!
I misunderstood you. To my knowledge, that was not a custom that was practiced.
The main issue though is that no one knew those kids had died or how.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 10:59:01 AM by Harry Black »

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2017, 12:30:54 PM »
That is the main issue where they were just discarded and then forgotten.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Online Friendly Angel

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2017, 01:56:52 PM »
Is that actually true? I have walked graveyards and could swear I have seen infant and baby graves from that time frame.

It appears to be Catholic spin/damage control... whether it's true or not.
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/irish-infants-mass-graves-a-sensationalized-story


Quote
But what ought to be remembered is that the practice of burying unbaptized infants in unconsecrated ground was common throughout Europe, until the Church revised Her dogma on limbo. Simply because a baby was not buried in consecrated ground does not mean there was the absence of all rites. Limbo simply taught that a baby would not enter into full knowledge of the Beatific vision, not that the soul would not experience happiness.

The other factor to bear in mind was that mass graves were not uncommon through Ireland and the rest of the world. Children's burial grounds abound in Ireland, and in these the baptized would be separated from the unbaptized. Unmarked graves were also common, as was the practice of putting an infant in the coffin of a sometimes unrelated deceased adult. Releasing infant bodies to parents is a relatively modern practice. Several maternity hospitals in Ireland had burial grounds to inter the remains of still or newborn babies and sometimes their mothers who died there.
Amend and resubmit.

Online Desert Fox

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"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
On average that's a dead child every two weeks at this institution.  How does something like that go unnoticed?
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 03:27:49 PM »
Ive learned alot about catholicism from chatting to people here.
At first I thought it was just that I had not been paying attention as a kid, but upon speaking to people at home, it became apparent that the catholicism practiced in Ireland seems very different to that of american or italian catholicism, despite the obvious logic that this should not be so.
The unbaptised baby problem is one that they dealt with (in Ireland at least) by having a service for the deceased child and getting them out of purgatory on appeal so to speak. Ive been to these services.
So those kids do get buried in graveyards. Perhaps its a Vatican 2 thing?
The logic though that babies would have been dying fast enough to necessitate mass graves and that this would have been acceptable, strikes me as unlikely.

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 06:29:12 PM »
There was this show on the BBC called "History Cold Case" and one is the Crossbones Girl. A lot of poor people died during the 1800s. They were buried in mass graves but they were still put in individual coffins (cheap though) and given last rites.

BBC program on Crossbone's Girl
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 06:39:37 PM by Desert Fox »
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 08:28:25 PM »
https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/humaninterest/cradle-to-the-grave-204120.html

This article is pretty interesting.
It seems like mass graves were not the norm, but rather seperate graveyards were used.

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 09:23:39 PM »
Call me crazy but I don't think that throwing the bodies in a septic tank was ever normal.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 09:27:36 PM »
What pisses me off is that two of the perpetrators are actually still alive but as they are now cute elderly ladies, they will likely get away with it

Offline Rai

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 04:56:12 AM »
On average that's a dead child every two weeks at this institution.  How does something like that go unnoticed?

It part of a well-oiled forced labour camp system, shielded by a conspiracy between church and state, that's how.



Unmarried mothers would be considered sinners and would be sent to one of these institutions by their own families on many occasions. They would deliver their children, who would be forcefully separated from them and placed in the care of the nuns, to be put up for adoption later. The women, meanwhile, would be forced into slave labour to repay the "favour" to the nuns. If they were lucky, they got out after a year or two. If they weren't, they'd be sent to the Magdalene Laundries, another kind of concentration camp where they'd be enslaved sometimes for the rest of their lives, subject to horrific abuse.

The mothers wouldn't even try looking for their children, the families wouldn't care and no-one even thought about asking questions. Since the camps were allowed to work in relative isolation from the outside world, disposing a few hundred dead children would have been easy, as long as it was done within camp grounds, behind high walls.

Ireland: the place where the systemic abuse of children isn't nearly the worst thing the Catholic Church has been permitted to do.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 05:01:18 AM by Rai »

Offline seamas

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2017, 10:41:27 AM »
At least they weren't aborted amirite?

Offline Rai

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2017, 10:46:47 AM »
At least they weren't aborted amirite?

And at least the young couples didn't use condoms or, gasp, birth control pills.

Online Ah.hell

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Re: Question related to the Tuam infant burial scandal?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2017, 10:59:53 AM »
Ive learned alot about catholicism from chatting to people here.
At first I thought it was just that I had not been paying attention as a kid, but upon speaking to people at home, it became apparent that the catholicism practiced in Ireland seems very different to that of american or italian catholicism, despite the obvious logic that this should not be so.
The unbaptised baby problem is one that they dealt with (in Ireland at least) by having a service for the deceased child and getting them out of purgatory on appeal so to speak. Ive been to these services.
So those kids do get buried in graveyards. Perhaps its a Vatican 2 thing?
The logic though that babies would have been dying fast enough to necessitate mass graves and that this would have been acceptable, strikes me as unlikely.
Its odd, most of what I know about Catholicism comes from my Irish Catholic father, he was raised in Limerick and went to the Jesuit school there.   Things my father has told me.
"I didn't have you babtized because that means you'll go to purgatory."
"I was taught Catholics are more likely to go to hell than heathens because Catholics know better."  Better in that they've been taught not to sin but still do.
His favorite joke/apocryphal anecdote about the Irish relationship to the church.
  An old guy was arrested for burning down the local Cathedral and when asked why he did it, "I wouldn't have but I though the Bishop was inside."

I think the point is that your suppose to respect the institution but necessarily the people.  IDK, I think this likely represents My great grandfathers relationship to the church than Ireland's generally.  My old man was raised by his grand father. 

My take away is that it seems the worst aspects of the church state incest started after the English left.  A sad irony really.  Side note there's an interesting related story out of England.  Seems the English were shipping poor white kids to Australia, to boost the population and make sure it stayed white.   They were often shipped to harsh work camps run by the.....Catholic Monks. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/feb/24/child-migrant-programme-slavery


 

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