Author Topic: Episode #611  (Read 2427 times)

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Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2017, 01:46:27 PM »
For a goy, I tend to be pretty good at the Science or Jewy.

The one about the bread dough made me wonder if it was ritualizing the practice of saving a piece of dough for use in the next day's bread --from the days before we knew about yeast.

For a jew I kinda suck at it because it's all as plausible and insane at the same time.
I love this segment, and Joshie is the absolute best!

I've been married to a Jewess since '97, dating since '91.

Her parents are reasonably religious ("Modern" Orthodox--they attend an Orthodox congregation, keep a Kosher home but she doesn't wear a wig and he doesn't wear a kippah 24/7).
All in all he has fed me a LOT of info about Jewish law and Rabbinical thinking (he grew up in a non-religious Bronx Jewish neighborhood and got interested after my BiL got Bar mitzvahed).

One think he stressed to me once when I used the term "Ultra Orthodox" to describe Hassidim, was that there is NO SUCH thing as "Ultra Orthodox".
 Either one is orthodox or isn't. There are no degrees.
The Hassidim are Orthodox, usually fairly strict PLUS a lot of other baggage and trappings that have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

What I have learned most is most of what is done is legal interpretation and debate about the meanings of the laws in the first 5 books. Interesting stuff, and the writings and back and forth about them are insightful about the Jewish culture as a whole.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 04:00:37 AM »
I was always under the impression that the ASMR response was primarily to the sound - whispering or scratching sounds in particular. If performing actions slowly and precisely is the key, may I suggest Almazan Kitchen as a possible source? I've been watching this channel for a while now and from the description given in the podcast it seems to me that it might be good. I don't experience ASMR so I can't tell. Anyone feel like opining?

I registered for the forum after hearing the latest episode just so I could comment on ASMR. You get it, dude. The video in the link pushes all my tingly buttons.

Ah, I thought it might. Thanks for confirming. :)

Online Harry Black

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2017, 09:29:04 AM »
I found the ASMR discussion very interesting.
Something that I did not expect was the connection to attention to detail.
Attention to detail in the way described, viscerally grosses me out.
Doing, watching or thinking about people painting minitures or threading needles makes my skin crawl and Im even squirming in my seat as I write this.
Ugh.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2017, 11:31:00 PM »
I've always loved watching people do things that they're very good at, and it doesn't really matter what that is. Competence porn, as it were. It's why I like cooking shows (including the one I linked to). But I don't get an ASMR response to it. I just enjoy it.

Offline estockly

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »
I believe I've have an ASMR response to one very specific stimuli.

Standing on a cliff over looking the ocean as large waves (15ft) crash just below.

I could stand and watch that for hours.


and Donald Trump is President of the United States.


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Offline AtheistApotheosis

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2017, 05:30:51 PM »
Science or Jewy never fails to put a smile on my dial, and gives me an Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response every time. Joshie Berger should be a regular rouge... and my spell-check has decided his name is Josephine, who new?

Now that Chiropractic Quackery can go legit, my ambition to become a science based sorcerer/homoeopath/warlock/witch doctor? what doctor? doctor who? oh that doctor, may not be so impossible/implausible/unlikely/not a chance/Buckley's/ridiculous after all. The Latinist said "I can see chiropractors eventually becoming science-based physical therapists" I assume that means not calling themselves chiropractors any more. If I give up golf and take up tennis should I continue to consider myself a golfer? in my case, probably. I can see someone being a physical therapist and a chiropractor with some overlap between the two. But there comes a point where you've removed all of the woo and become a chiropractor in name only, but really a physical therapist.

ASMR, just another weird thing my brain does. Strangely I didn't know you needed sound stimulation, I never have. I just do it. Though if I do it for too long my fingers and toes start to tingle and I get pins and needles sometimes. It's like the clicking or thunder noise you make in your ears when you flex certain muscles in your head close to your ear canals. You just do it without knowing exactly how, and sometimes it makes your ears pop if you inhale or exhale at the same time. There is also the thing where I roll my eyes up, focus on a point about three inches inside my head and give myself chills, it also helps me fall asleep quickly. Or that point right between my eyebrows, where if I focus on it I get a really unpleasant feeling of pressure and sometimes results in a headache. I get the same effect if I use something like a pencil and get it as close as possible without touching that spot. Weird. At least it's not as unpleasant as exploding head syndrome or sleep paralysis. I get both of these, usually once or twice a year. But they're no where near as irritating as tinnitus which is like having a head full of tiny cicadas going shring in your head 24/7. And like the other things get louder if I listen and focus on them. My tinnitus used to give me night terrors when I was little and on quiet nights still can wake me up. I need some other noise to block it out like a fan running next to the bed. ASMR is much more pleasant.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2017, 05:39:13 PM »
...
Now that Chiropractic Quackery can go legit, my ambition to become a science based sorcerer/homoeopath/warlock/witch doctor? what doctor? doctor who? oh that doctor, may not be so impossible/implausible/unlikely/not a chance/Buckley's/ridiculous after all. The Latinist said "I can see chiropractors eventually becoming science-based physical therapists" I assume that means not calling themselves chiropractors any more. If I give up golf and take up tennis should I continue to consider myself a golfer? in my case, probably. I can see someone being a physical therapist and a chiropractor with some overlap between the two. But there comes a point where you've removed all of the woo and become a chiropractor in name only, but really a physical therapist.
...

I gather that the notion would be to re-define the term "chiropractor" to mean a physical therapist who specializes in the spine and back. You'd still be a chiropractor, but you'd have tossed out the woo. Just as we still use the term "doctor" for people who no longer bleed you to restore balance to your humors.
Daniel
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Offline J Harlan

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 03:55:03 AM »
I first experienced asmr as a primary school student close to 30 years ago when fellow students would draw on my book covers, click pens rhythmically, or fidget.  A massive euphoric pleasure would wash over me in waves for the duration of the action.  In hindsight, it was very drug-like, as when it ended I would experience very withdrawal-like symptoms.  As someone who experimented with chemicals quite a bit as a young adult, I'd most compare it to how I later felt when trying mdma. 

Offline Zelda McMuffin

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2017, 10:33:57 PM »
Re: ASMR

I've experienced the sensation for as long as I can remember. I'm in the cohort that got hooked on the feeling watching Bob Ross in the 80s and 90s.

I will occasionally have chills or goosebumps in response to great music or to a particularly emotional scene in a movie. For me, this is an entirely unrelated phenomenon, and the sensation is distinct. My ASMR triggers really don't involve an emotional component. In fact, I would say that I am in more of an analytical and intensely focused frame of mind when I experience ASMR tingles. I think a pretty common aspect of most ASMR performances is a pleasant, but flat affect. Gut-wrenching does not make for good ASMR.

My favorite video trigger is watching a skillful origami artist fold a complicated model. Hands only, no talking. There is an element of closeness or intimacy as it appears as though I'm watching from very near the artist. There is the element of precise and purposeful movements. There is also a quality to my favorite triggers that doesn't get mentioned often (but it does come up occasionally), and that is an element of anticipation and surprise; that it's not entirely clear what the actor is going to do next, but it's clear that they know exactly what they are doing.

That last element relates to another common trigger for me. I will often have an ASMR sensation when I am listening to a great storyteller. It was also pretty common to have the sensation in college lectures presented by very engaging professors. Another good IRL trigger for me is learning a new lab technique or surgical procedure from an experienced researcher.

I do believe that the grooming behavior theory is a good one (i do get some tingles when someone, for instance, runs their fingers through my hair.), but I don't think it describes most of the situations that give me tingles. Most of my triggers involve some closeness or personal contact, intense focus, and learning or acquisition of an (arcane) skill, or a nugget of unusual or unexpected information.

From browsing through ASMR  videos on you tube, I think my experience of ASMR is not unique, but triggers are definitely not universal. For some people it seems to be almost entirely aural, for some it's more physically sensual (but not often sexual), for many, including myself, triggers are much stronger when there is an intellectual component as well. That suggests to me that in addition to the grooming-partner bonding instinct it might also have something to do with an instinct for mentor/student bonding.
This sounds similar to my experience.
 I always thought it was a sensory integration disorder thing. I'll bet most Aspies experience ASMR.
But the grooming hypothesis makes sense.
I'm also triggered by soft conversation at a distance. It gives me the feeling I got as a kid when I was safe in bed and grownups were talking... especially if I was sick in bed and the grownups were discussing that to do to take care of me. (Competence of others gives me warm fuzzies)
On the annoying side, I can't go to a hair salon or get a massage because the tingling turns into extreme discomfort, skin crawling, starting in the back of my head.
Most of the YouTube videos are too intense, too. Especially the whispering. I feel like my back skin is going to crawl off and scurry away.


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Offline phooey

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2017, 09:32:49 AM »
I found this episode particularly noteworthy for its preponderance of bad knowledge and information. 

For one, I was really interested to hear Josh explain away the bullshit that is Michael Behe and irreducible complexity.  Well, go on then Josh, tell us how IC has been debunked and solved without any controversy.  I was just waiting. I am sure you have a great grasp of the subject, so please...

And then of course, there was the ASMR fiasco.  Some people get it and some people don't huh?  And its a science mystery?  Like Cara for instance doesn't get it.  Well, ok, sure, when she listens to certain music she likes, she will experience the exact symptoms of ASMR, but she doesn't actually GET ASMR. Oh brother. 

Maybe its a remnant of grooming!  Because if you got a response to grooming, you would be more likely to want grooming, and thus you would have a much better survival rate than those who had no interest in being groomed-makes perfect sense-if you are a gullible evolutionist storyteller that is.

How about EVERYONE gets a response to something that soothes or stimulates memories.  And anyone who claims some people don't are really just unaware buffoons?  There are some people who don't respond to music that inspires them?  Or to the touch of a soft feather?  I would like to meet these people. Maybe its a good test for psychopathy. 

I have an even better scientific challenge, let's try to find out a name for people who respond to things they hate, like the sound of nails on a chalkboard, or being burned with a cigarette. Anti-ASMRers?  People who cringe or get a bad feeling from this must be special.  We should study them. 

Sometimes I want to reach through my media device and strangle the show hosts.  I wonder if there is a name for this.     

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2017, 04:19:34 PM »
Sometimes I want to reach through my media device and strangle the show hosts.  I wonder if there is a name for this.   

I'd suggest vertkvelningstrang in Norwegian, which might possibly be Gastgebererwürgenverlangen in German. Maybe tack podcast on at the start of it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:21:50 PM by 2397 »

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2017, 07:33:44 PM »
Sometimes I want to reach through my media device and strangle the show hosts.  I wonder if there is a name for this.   

There is a name for this. It's "stop listening - they won't miss you".

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2017, 06:16:52 AM »
I think they very much want people who disagree with them to listen, though probably don't as much want the hints of violence.

Offline phooey

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2017, 08:47:59 AM »
I have done zero research on it outside of a Radiolab (or perhaps This American Life?), but I'm fairly certain that feeling sensations while observing beautiful scenery or getting chills during music is not ASMR.  I would consider those fairly typical responses to enjoyable stimuli.  Even people who don't feel tingly would still tell you they feel something when listening to intense music or observing a waterfall.  The aspect of ASMR that makes it interesting is that it involves people reacting to ordinarily mundane stimuli.  I suppose it could be the same underlying physiological mechanism, but broadening the definition of ASMR to include everything under the sun seems to make it a useless diagnosis.

I can't imagine why you would be fairly certain hey are not the exact same thing.  I would imagine that it is exactly that, and that everyone gets this sensation, its just that different things cause it in different people because we all have different memories and sensitivities.  That would see pretty obvious.  All the hubbub is likely just internet bloggers and skeptical podcast presenters once again failing top see the obvious. 

Like for instance when a pediatrician says they have concerns about childhood vaccines, that is pseudo-science, but when Steven claims they are perfectly safe, oh well, he is a doctor, so he must know...Or even when Cara says so, because, ..well, she is a skeptic. 

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2017, 11:01:56 AM »
... Like for instance when a pediatrician says they have concerns about childhood vaccines, that is pseudo-science, but when Steven claims they are perfectly safe, oh well, he is a doctor, so he must know...Or even when Cara says so, because, ..well, she is a skeptic. 

No, it's about the evidence. It's all about the evidence. What distinguishes science from pseudoscience is not the conclusion or whether any given person agrees or disagrees. It's the evidence. Scientists are people who draw their conclusions from the evidence. Pseudoscientists are people who first decide on their conclusions, and then look for whatever they can twist to fit their conclusions.

Nobody here would say that Cara is right because she's a skeptic, or that Steve is right because he's a doctor. Cara and Steve are people who form their conclusions based on evidence. Anti-vaxxers are people who listen to fear-mongers and reject the evidence in favor of their irrational fears.
Daniel
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