Author Topic: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam  (Read 686 times)

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Online Desert Fox

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Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« on: April 06, 2017, 09:46:47 PM »
I don't know how much I trust the title but it is an interesting read

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/29/you-shouldnt-blame-islam-for-terrorism-religion-isnt-a-crucial-factor-in-attacks/

You Shouldn’t Blame Islam for Terrorism. Religion Isn’t a Crucial Factor in Attacks.

What do you think of when you hear the word “terrorist”? Big beards and brown skins? Turban-wearing Muslim migrants from the Middle East? Refugees maybe?

Yet according to a report from the New America Foundation, “every jihadist who conducted a lethal attack inside the United States since 9/11 was a citizen or legal resident.” A recent study in Britain, which last week endured its worst terrorist atrocity since 2005, revealed that more than two out of three “Islamism-inspired” terrorist offenses were carried out by individuals “who were either born or raised in the UK.”

The common stereotype of the Middle Eastern, Muslim-born terrorist is not just lazy and inaccurate, but easy fodder for the anti-immigrant, anti-Islam far right. Consider the swift reaction of White House official Sebastian Gorka to the horrific terror attack in London last week. “The war is real,” he told Fox News while the bodies of the victims were still warm, “and that’s why executive orders like President Trump’s travel moratorium are so important.”
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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 07:59:42 AM »
What matters is how they end up with the motivations that they have. Things like this travel ban is the wrong approach and a big waste of resources, but I wouldn't go out of my way to say that religion and Islam in particular is not a significant factor.

I see religions as similar to other major pseudoscientific movements, and that there's plenty of potential for the systematic deceptions and errors to lead to people directly causing harm through their actions.

And it could be that religion causes "issues of identity and belonging; a sense of persecution; mental illness; socio-economic grievances; moral outrage over conflict and torture; a craving for glory and purpose". You could go expand this list with more things explained with "that's not religion, it's this thing that can exist independently of religion", and end up with religion being nothing.

It's part of the whole, it's a major part of culture, it influences culture and is influenced by culture. The impression I get from articles like this is that there is a drive to remove all blame from a specific religion, similar to the drive others have to blame all harm on a specific religion.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2017, 07:50:13 AM »
I don't know how much I trust the title but it is an interesting read

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/29/you-shouldnt-blame-islam-for-terrorism-religion-isnt-a-crucial-factor-in-attacks/

You Shouldn’t Blame Islam for Terrorism. Religion Isn’t a Crucial Factor in Attacks.

What do you think of when you hear the word “terrorist”? Big beards and brown skins? Turban-wearing Muslim migrants from the Middle East? Refugees maybe?

Yet according to a report from the New America Foundation, “every jihadist who conducted a lethal attack inside the United States since 9/11 was a citizen or legal resident.” A recent study in Britain, which last week endured its worst terrorist atrocity since 2005, revealed that more than two out of three “Islamism-inspired” terrorist offenses were carried out by individuals “who were either born or raised in the UK.”

The common stereotype of the Middle Eastern, Muslim-born terrorist is not just lazy and inaccurate, but easy fodder for the anti-immigrant, anti-Islam far right. Consider the swift reaction of White House official Sebastian Gorka to the horrific terror attack in London last week. “The war is real,” he told Fox News while the bodies of the victims were still warm, “and that’s why executive orders like President Trump’s travel moratorium are so important.”


It is likely the second generation that are more radicalised because refugees and immigrants from Islamic countries often see the horror of the religion and flee it. This phenomenon does not remove Islam from the causal relationship it just means most terrorists stay in the middle east (as evidenced by the vast majority of terrorism occurring in the middle east) and it usually takes a generation for terrorism to occur in western countries (like the Florida shooting or the Manchester bombing).
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Offline Rai

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2017, 08:13:37 AM »
most terrorists stay in the middle east (as evidenced by the vast majority of terrorism occurring in the middle east) and it usually takes a generation for terrorism to occur in western countries.

I wonder, what might be the relation between terrorism in the Middle East and the fact that the worst armed conflicts on the planet are currently taking place in the exact same area.

Hmmm....

Could there be a correlation?

I wonder.


BTW, I always find it amusing that none of these counts ever include stuff like unrestricted drone warfare as terrorism. 

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2017, 08:18:46 AM »
I wonder, what might be the relation between terrorism in the Middle East and the fact that the worst armed conflicts on the planet are currently taking place in the exact same area.

Hmmm....

Could there be a correlation?

I wonder.
Chicken and egg.

BTW, I always find it amusing that none of these counts ever include stuff like unrestricted drone warfare as terrorism.
Fair point. The west should step back from the middle east.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2017, 08:32:15 AM »
I wonder, what might be the relation between terrorism in the Middle East and the fact that the worst armed conflicts on the planet are currently taking place in the exact same area.

Hmmm....

Could there be a correlation?

I wonder.
Chicken and egg.

You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2017, 08:38:05 AM »
You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

The proximate cause is the wars, which was ostensibly used to overthrow dictators and install a western style democratic government (hence the chicken and egg). It seemed like the brutal dictators in the middle east are less brutal than what we have now.

The distal cause is Islam and tribalism in the middle east.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2017, 08:49:46 AM »
The proximate cause is the wars, which was ostensibly used to overthrow dictators and install a western style democratic government (hence the chicken and egg).

How cute, you must be the only person in the world who believes the Iraq war was started to overthrow a dictator.



Also, overthrowing governments worked so well for Iran as well. It's not like we had no precedent of Western meddling causing absolute disaster. Al Queda was totally not created by the Saudis and Pakistan (our gallant allies) using US money, to fight the Soviets.



Also, I love it how you say tribalism is the problem while ignoring the fact that every single border in the Middle East was drawn by committees of French and British parasites, with no care or regard for the people who actually lived in the Middle East.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2017, 08:58:20 AM »
How cute, you must be the only person in the world who believes the Iraq war was started to overthrow a dictator.

Also, overthrowing governments worked so well for Iran as well. It's not like we had no precedent of Western meddling causing absolute disaster. Al Queda was totally not created by the Saudis and Pakistan (our gallant allies) using US money, to fight the Soviets.

Also, I love it how you say tribalism is the problem while ignoring the fact that every single border in the Middle East was drawn by committees of French and British parasites, with no care or regard for the people who actually lived in the Middle East.

I'm all for western powers leaving the middle east.

Much of the conflict comes from different groups - such as the Armernian massacre by the Young Turks - was that the French and British?

It probably has something to do with the Ottoman empire - when was the last time there were borders in the middle east?


It also has something to do with religion.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2017, 11:14:23 AM »
Much of the conflict comes from different groups - such as the Armernian massacre by the Young Turks - was that the French and British?

It had nothing to do with religion either. Muslim and Christian Armenians were murdered equally. The Young Turks themselves were fiercely secularist.


It also has something to do with religion.

Sure, just look at the Lebanese Civil War, it was all just them Muslims. The Americans who invaded Iraq were also Muslims. Or The Russians bombing Syria? Muslims. Israel, you shouldn't even ask. Muslims, all of them.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2017, 11:52:20 AM »
Banned from both Hacker News and the xkcd forum.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 01:50:35 PM »


You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

There was terrorism in Iraq. We just called them opposition forces and Saddam handled it by doing things such as gassing the people.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 02:04:24 PM »


You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

There was terrorism in Iraq. We just called them opposition forces and Saddam handled it by doing things such as gassing the people.

That is just factually incorrect in so many ways.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 03:23:47 PM »


You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

There was terrorism in Iraq. We just called them opposition forces and Saddam handled it by doing things such as gassing the people.

That is just factually incorrect in so many ways.

That is only factually incorrect depending on how you define terrorism. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter or we like to call them uprisings here in the west if we agree with their POV.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

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Re: Interesting intercept article on terrorsm and Islam
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2017, 04:10:03 PM »


You mean that terrorism came before the wars?

That is why there was hardly any terrorism in Iraq before 2003, but then it mysteriously started rising. What could have happened? Same for the mysterious correlation between terrorism in Syria that started going up around 2011... Even in Afghanistan and Pakistan, terrorist attacks seems to have started up in earnest after the War on Terror started. There are just so many chickens here.

There was terrorism in Iraq. We just called them opposition forces and Saddam handled it by doing things such as gassing the people.

That is just factually incorrect in so many ways.

That is only factually incorrect depending on how you define terrorism. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter or we like to call them uprisings here in the west if we agree with their POV.

First of all, the 1991 rebellions lasted about a month, it was hardly indicative of pre-war Iraq, especially since they can be seen as part of the Gulf War. The rebellion itself was mostly a good old-fashioned mutiny and not even Ba'aathists considered it terrorism (this was way before every form of armed struggle was called terrorism by state actors).

I would not consider Saddam's reprisals terrorism either, they go beyond that into the territory of mass extermination.

 

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