Author Topic: vitamin C  (Read 717 times)

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Offline lonely moa

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vitamin C
« on: April 11, 2017, 08:49:23 PM »
I thought this was interesting.  I just killed a serious cold in three days by doing just this; my tummy made a bit of noise, mind you.

Quote
Dr. Hemilä concludes that "given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration of colds, and its safety and low cost, it would be worthwhile for individual common cold patients to test whether therapeutic 8 g/day vitamin C is beneficial for them. Self-dosing of vitamin C must be started as soon as possible after the onset of common cold symptoms to be most effective."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm
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Offline jt512

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 10:19:59 PM »
I thought this was interesting.  I just killed a serious cold in three days by doing just this; my tummy made a bit of noise, mind you.

Quote
Dr. Hemilä concludes that "given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration of colds, and its safety and low cost, it would be worthwhile for individual common cold patients to test whether therapeutic 8 g/day vitamin C is beneficial for them. Self-dosing of vitamin C must be started as soon as possible after the onset of common cold symptoms to be most effective."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm

I looked at the original paper and the supplemental materials.  His statistical methods are totally wrong.  At best, he has no idea what he's doing.  At worst, he performed invalid statistics after finding that valid statistics didn't give him results he liked.  I wouldn't believe his results at all.

Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 11:27:05 PM »
I thought this was interesting.  I just killed a serious cold in three days by doing just this; my tummy made a bit of noise, mind you.

Quote
Dr. Hemilä concludes that "given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration of colds, and its safety and low cost, it would be worthwhile for individual common cold patients to test whether therapeutic 8 g/day vitamin C is beneficial for them. Self-dosing of vitamin C must be started as soon as possible after the onset of common cold symptoms to be most effective."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm
Your statement or belief is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc form of logical fallacy, is at minimum anecdotal and an example of confirmation bias.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 08:15:52 PM »
I dunno, works for me.
"The home of the brave and the land of the free; the less you know, the better off you'll be"

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Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2017, 08:44:03 PM »
I dunno, works for me.
That's what you believe. What are your controls to know otherwise?

Online The Latinist

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2017, 09:21:51 PM »
Why are you folks expecting skeptical thinking from a person who has shown no inclination toward it in over 4,000 posts on this board?
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline werecow

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2017, 09:57:57 PM »
I thought this was interesting.  I just killed a serious cold in three days by doing just this; my tummy made a bit of noise, mind you.

Quote
Dr. Hemilä concludes that "given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration of colds, and its safety and low cost, it would be worthwhile for individual common cold patients to test whether therapeutic 8 g/day vitamin C is beneficial for them. Self-dosing of vitamin C must be started as soon as possible after the onset of common cold symptoms to be most effective."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm

I looked at the original paper and the supplemental materials.  His statistical methods are totally wrong.  At best, he has no idea what he's doing.  At worst, he performed invalid statistics after finding that valid statistics didn't give him results he liked.  I wouldn't believe his results at all.

I haven't read the paper yet, but could you provide some details? Might be interesting to know what kind of things to look for in these kinds of papers.
Mooohn!

Offline jt512

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2017, 05:49:12 PM »
I thought this was interesting.  I just killed a serious cold in three days by doing just this; my tummy made a bit of noise, mind you.

Quote
Dr. Hemilä concludes that "given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration of colds, and its safety and low cost, it would be worthwhile for individual common cold patients to test whether therapeutic 8 g/day vitamin C is beneficial for them. Self-dosing of vitamin C must be started as soon as possible after the onset of common cold symptoms to be most effective."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm

I looked at the original paper and the supplemental materials.  His statistical methods are totally wrong.  At best, he has no idea what he's doing.  At worst, he performed invalid statistics after finding that valid statistics didn't give him results he liked.  I wouldn't believe his results at all.

I haven't read the paper yet, but could you provide some details? Might be interesting to know what kind of things to look for in these kinds of papers.

Looking more deeply, I see a far more serious problem than what first caught my attention.  Hemilä [1] claims that the Karlowski trial [2] shows a significant dose-response effect of vitamin C on cold duration (see section 4.7 and Fig. 2A).  But Karlowski et al report that subjects were able to distinguish between placebo and vitamin C with a high rate of success, and that there was a dose-response effect on duration only among subjects who were "unblinded."  They write, "[E]ach 3-gm increment of ascorbic acid would appear to shorten the mean duration of a cold by approximately half a day.  However, these differences were eliminated by taking into account the correct guesses of medication ingested (Table 6)."

Now, here is Table 6:


The table clearly shows that there was no dose-response effect among subjects who remained ignorant of their treatment group.  The entire "effect" is in the "unblinded" group.  The authors actually published a second paper [3] focusing on the effect of unblinding in the trial.  Hemilä used data from each paper in his analysis. It seems almost certain that he was aware of the problems with this trial, yet he makes no mention of it and uses the data from the combined "blinded" and "unblinded" subjects to make claims about a dose-repsonse effect.  This seems awfully close to research misconduct, and the paper should be corrected if not retracted.  I think I'm going to write a letter to the editor about this. [Correction: Hemilä disputes the unmasking explanation toward the end of his paper.  That's not to say that he is correct, but at least he addressed the issue.]

[1] http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/4/339
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/163386
[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1106302
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 04:37:46 AM by jt512 »

Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2017, 08:32:04 PM »
Why are you folks expecting skeptical thinking from a person who has shown no inclination toward it in over 4,000 posts on this board?
You can't assume that I (or others) automatically know the posting history of anyone on here.

Nevertheless I was asking a basic validation question in response to their statement of belief. I don't expect a response, it's more to point out the fallacy of their belief statement.

Offline Crash

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2017, 11:51:17 AM »
  I tried to look up more about this Dr. Hemilä.  His credentials do not appear on the internet as far as I looked.  His home page has link to his education that is blank, http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/education.htm.   He appears to work for the Dept. of Public Health in Helsinki. 
  I bet he is not a real doctor but some kind of naturopath.  Those quacks love to offer vitamin C as a panacea to all their dupes.  Hemilä's vitamin C regimen is the same that Linus Pauling recommended.  All that was discredited long ago.  I like Pauling but he derailed with his vitamin C tangent. 
  Theres no reason to take vitamin C supplements unless you have scurvy.  Otherwise you are just making expensive urine.

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2017, 05:11:37 PM »
  I tried to look up more about this Dr. Hemilä.  His credentials do not appear on the internet as far as I looked.  His home page has link to his education that is blank, http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/education.htm.   He appears to work for the Dept. of Public Health in Helsinki. 
  I bet he is not a real doctor but some kind of naturopath.

The page isn't blank  ???

MD 1999 University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland;
PhD (epidemiology) 2006 University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland;
PhD (biochemistry) 1993 University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland
Docent (adjunct professor), biochemistry 1996

It still doesn't mean he isn't a quack  ;)

I'm glad it works for lonely moa. If it works, isn't expensive, makes him feel good and does no harm, then go for it.

But it is anecdotal, with a sample size of one. So therefore, not evidence of efficacy.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2017, 06:31:50 PM »
I like being a little less sceptical at times, so as not to miss out.  Like not missing out on a diet that includes bacon and eggs, full fat dairy and plenty of butter.

Just sayin'. 
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2017, 06:58:54 PM »
I like being a little less sceptical at times, so as not to miss out. ...

This statement baffles me. It seems to suggest that there are benefits to ignorance.
Daniel
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Offline werecow

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2017, 07:00:47 PM »
I like being a little less sceptical at times, so as not to miss out.  Like not missing out on a diet that includes bacon and eggs, full fat dairy and plenty of butter.

Just sayin'.

I don't see why one could not be a skeptic and eat unhealthy foods because they're tasty. I will never give up french fries. NEVER! Also I like a bit of extra salt on my salt.
Mooohn!

Offline Crash

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Re: vitamin C
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2017, 12:13:18 PM »
Quote from: Tassie Dave link=topic=48511.msg9491957#msg9491957 date=1492290697

The page isn't blank  ???

[/quote
  Oops, I was using the  Safari browser. 

 

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