Author Topic: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses  (Read 327 times)

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Online Desert Fox

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Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« on: April 24, 2017, 01:57:59 AM »
I don't like Jehovah Witness and there are certain practices that should be banned such as parents stopping their children from getting blood transfusions but this is wrong

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39661339

Russia's Supreme Court has accepted the government's request to designate Jehovah's Witnesses as an outlawed religious group, deeming it to be an extremist organisation.

The justice ministry argued that the group had distributed pamphlets which incited hatred against other groups.

Lawyers representing the group reject the claims and say they will appeal.

The denomination says it has 175,000 members in Russia - a country where it was persecuted during the Stalin era.

An estimated eight million people worldwide are part of the Christian-based movement, best known for going door-to-door looking for new converts.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Online daniel1948

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
I'm not a JW, but I sure am glad my grandparents got the hell out of there. It was a repressive police state under the Czars, it was a repressive police state under the CP, and it's a repressive police state under Putin.

A recent This American Life talked about how Putin finances the "opposition." His propaganda minister creates the opposition parties, which has the double benefit of giving the world the impression of an open political system and providing an "acceptable" venue for "protest."
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2017, 12:28:31 AM »
I don't like Jehovah Witness and there are certain practices that should be banned such as parents stopping their children from getting blood transfusions but this is wrong
I agree. Governments shouldn't be in the position of outlawing religions that are otherwise law-abiding.

Offline werecow

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2017, 08:01:29 AM »
Putin has been cozying up to the orthodox church for a while now, so I am not particularly surprised that he'd at some point start interfering with other evangelizing sects.



(Yes, that is an icon of Putin he's making out with.)
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Offline Redamare

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2017, 08:10:44 AM »
Man, Russia is so fucked up.
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Online Desert Fox

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 11:34:52 AM »
I don't like Jehovah Witness and there are certain practices that should be banned such as parents stopping their children from getting blood transfusions but this is wrong
I agree. Governments shouldn't be in the position of outlawing religions that are otherwise law-abiding.

Granted, I wish that they would stop and there are some pretty horrid things done by the Jehovah Witness church.

Still, the reason for the door to door in both Jehova Witness and Mormons have little to do with making converts, their conversion rates are horrid. The real reason is to cement the beliefs in the parishioners themselves. Basically with all that work trying to convert others, you become invested.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Online daniel1948

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 06:29:56 PM »
I don't like Jehovah Witness and there are certain practices that should be banned such as parents stopping their children from getting blood transfusions but this is wrong
I agree. Governments shouldn't be in the position of outlawing religions that are otherwise law-abiding.

IMO, indoctrinating children into demonstrably false beliefs, when they are at an impressionable age, constitutes child abuse. This aspect of religion, while not in violation of current laws, is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.
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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 06:35:13 PM »
IMO, indoctrinating children into demonstrably false beliefs, when they are at an impressionable age, constitutes child abuse. This aspect of religion, while not in violation of current laws, is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.

I am a little cautious about that . . . .Let us go somewhere not religious. Say I want to advocate for protecting the wolves and it is an important issue. Such a law, unless carefully worded and they rarely are, could make it impossible for me to campaign for protecting the wolves.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 10:15:27 AM »
IMO, indoctrinating children into demonstrably false beliefs, when they are at an impressionable age, constitutes child abuse. This aspect of religion, while not in violation of current laws, is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.

I am a little cautious about that . . . .Let us go somewhere not religious. Say I want to advocate for protecting the wolves and it is an important issue. Such a law, unless carefully worded and they rarely are, could make it impossible for me to campaign for protecting the wolves.

Would you be indoctrinating children to believe demonstrably false ideas? Would you be telling them, "The world was created by a magical wolf in the sky who wrote a book 2,000 years ago telling us we need to worship wolves and never kill them," or would you simply be telling them, "I like wolves. I think they are beautiful and an important part of nature that should be protected."?
Daniel
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Offline werecow

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2017, 10:33:26 AM »
IMO, indoctrinating children into demonstrably false beliefs, when they are at an impressionable age, constitutes child abuse. This aspect of religion, while not in violation of current laws, is reprehensible and should not be tolerated.

I am a little cautious about that . . . .Let us go somewhere not religious. Say I want to advocate for protecting the wolves and it is an important issue. Such a law, unless carefully worded and they rarely are, could make it impossible for me to campaign for protecting the wolves.

Would you be indoctrinating children to believe demonstrably false ideas? Would you be telling them, "The world was created by a magical wolf in the sky who wrote a book 2,000 years ago telling us we need to worship wolves and never kill them," or would you simply be telling them, "I like wolves. I think they are beautiful and an important part of nature that should be protected."?

I don't like indoctrination either, but I think the problem is that there is no clearly defined definition of "demonstrably false ideas", and so you're opening up a hornets nest where whatever authority is in charge of determining what is or is not "demonstrably false" is very likely defining the boundaries of reality to suit their own ideology for the rest of the population.

EDIT: And to add, in Russia, I suspect that this is the hand of the creepy Russian orthodox church, so it's not like Jehova's Witnesses are replaced by a rational ideology.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 10:38:44 AM by werecow »
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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2017, 12:36:52 PM »
They are a member of the ECHR and this is their position
http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Freedom_religion_ENG.pdf
Quote
Places of worship
Association for Solidarity with Jehovah Witnesses and Others v. Turkey
24 May 2016
This case concerned the inability of the Mersin and İzmir Jehovah’s Witnesses to obtain an appropriate place in order to engage in worship.
On the basis of a law prohibiting the opening of places of worship on sites not designated for that purpose and imposing certain conditions on the building of places of worship, the private premises which the Mersin and İzmir congregations of the Jehovah’s Witnesses had been using were closed by the national authorities and their applications to use those premises as places of worship were rejected. The congregations were also informed that the local development plans comprised no sites which could be used as places of worship.
The Court held that there had been a violation of Article 9 of the Convention. It found in particular that the congregations in question were unable to obtain an appropriate place in which to worship on a regular basis, which amounted to such a direct interference with their freedom of religion that it was neither proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued, that is to say the prevention of disorder, nor necessary in a democratic society. The Court considered that the domestic court had taken no account of the specific needs of a small community of believers and noted that the impugned legislation made no mention of that type of need, whereas, given the small number of adherents, the congregations in question needed not a building with a specific architectural design but a simple meeting room in which to worship, meet and teach their beliefs.

Proselytism
Kokkinakis v. Greece
25 May 1993
A Jehovah’s Witness, the applicant complained of his criminal conviction of proselytism by the Greek courts in 1988 after engaging in a conversation about religion with aneighbour, the wife of a cantor at a local Orthodox church.
The Court held that there had been a violation of Article 9 of the Convention, finding that the conviction had not been shown to have been justified in the circumstances of the case by a pressing social need. It noted in particular that he Greek courts had merely reproduced the wording of the law that made proselytism illegal without sufficiently specifying in what way the applicant had attempted to convince his neighbour by improper means.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline werecow

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 12:57:10 PM »
They are a member of the ECHR

Unfortunately I doubt Putin (and the ROC) care one bit about human rights when they interfere with their goals.
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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 09:01:49 PM »
They are a member of the ECHR

Unfortunately I doubt Putin (and the ROC) care one bit about human rights when they interfere with their goals.

The argument I hear out of a Russia poster on another forum is Proselytism and inciting Islamic. I have tried to point out in multiple posts that it appears as if the ECHR is clear but seems unwilling to even acknowledge my posts.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline werecow

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Re: Russia court outlaws 'extremist' Jehovah's Witnesses
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 10:29:36 PM »
The argument I hear out of a Russia poster on another forum is Proselytism and inciting Islamic.

I still say it's the Russian orthodox church. I mean, I can see the former (obviously), but typos aside (I assume you meant Islamic violence or Islamic extremism), the latter sounds ridiculous unless you also ban that huge Christian block.
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