Topic: Robert Jordan - The Wheel of Time (1990 - 2009)

[Apeiron]

I agree with Vellon. Though I hate Cadsuane and I don't really like Tuon, I do think that the second half of the series is great. End of Winter's Heart = coolest thing ever.

[dhawk]

I'm in the middle of Crossroads of Twilight right now, and I have to strongly disagree with anyone who says the series begins to fail in the second half.  Some of the new characters in the second half of the series (Cadsuane, Tuon to name a pair) are some of my favorites.  The events in the ending of Winter's Heart were amazing.

Lord of Chaos was the weak point in the series for me.  Many of the events in it seem to drag on and on without anything happen.  The books begin to thin a bit after Lord of Chaos, which I interpreted as a sign that Mr Jordan knew he had gone a bit long winded in Lord of Chaos.

Overall one of my favorite fantasy series of all time.

The Crossroads of Twilight is the one I like least.  You could sum up what happened in that book in a couple of paragraphs.  But yeah, the end of Winter's Heart was amazing.

[thefellswooper]

Not a big fan.  I made it through 5 and a half books before deciding I really didn't care enough to continue.  Giving up all those hours as lost was, as it turns out, entirely painless and caused me no remorse. 

There were certainly some good spots to the books, but they were all grossly overlong and self-indulgent (more so as the series progressed), and 90% of the characters were paper-thin (not that this is unusual for fantasy).  In particular, I found all the women (Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, even Siuan and what's-her-name...  Faile) interchangeable, and irritating.  It's like he said: Ooh, yes, this one will be feisty and strong-willed, and will pull on her braids!  And, let's see, this one will be feisty and strong-willed, and...  will have red hair!!!

Also, the Men are From Saidin, Women are From Saidar shtick got tired about 30 pages into book 1, and never stopped being tired.  And, Ogiers?  Stop wasting our time.

A few things I did like: the historical flashback scene when Rand goes to Rhuidean (I'd rather read a series set in that flashback world, I think), the Seanchan, the squabbles among the Forsaken.

[carrotflowers]

Not a big fan.  I made it through 5 and a half books before deciding I really didn't care enough to continue.  Giving up all those hours as lost was, as it turns out, entirely painless and caused me no remorse. 

There were certainly some good spots to the books, but they were all grossly overlong and self-indulgent (more so as the series progressed), and 90% of the characters were paper-thin (not that this is unusual for fantasy).  In particular, I found all the women (Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, even Siuan and what's-her-name...  Faile) interchangeable, and irritating.  It's like he said: Ooh, yes, this one will be feisty and strong-willed, and will pull on her braids!  And, let's see, this one will be feisty and strong-willed, and...  will have red hair!!!

Also, the Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus shtick got tired about 30 pages into book 1, and never stopped being tired.  And, Ogiers?  Stop wasting our time.

A few things I did like: the historical flashback scene when Rand goes to Rhuidean (I'd rather read a series set in that flashback world, I think), the Seanchan, the squabbles among the Forsaken.

I, on the other hand read them all, and I can tell you, thefellswooper kept pestering me after I was done, "What happened? What happened?"   

I loved the last 3, especially because Mat is my fave. However I just finished New Spring and found it disappointing. Compared to the rest of the books it was just quite simplistic.

I also liked the Rhuidean scene a ton, it's one of those sections where you completely disconnect with where you are and become totally absorbed in the story.

Don't be Ogier-hatin'.

[thefellswooper]

I, on the other hand read them all, and I can tell you, thefellswooper kept pestering me after I was done, "What happened? What happened?"   

I believe my exact words were, "Can you summarize what happened in 6 books in less than 2 minutes and I bet you can?"  That was the sentiment, anyway.

[carrotflowers]

I, on the other hand read them all, and I can tell you, thefellswooper kept pestering me after I was done, "What happened? What happened?"   

I believe my exact words were, "Can you summarize what happened in 6 books in less than 2 minutes and I bet you can?"  That was the sentiment, anyway.

You guys can believe me. TFS just stopped reading when Jordan died and we knew that even if the work were to be finished, it could never be done so a the same level. He couldn't bear it.

Yes, yes, there are some oversimplifications as regards to gender differences and characterizations. But it is more than made up for by the richly evolving plot. If you quit before the last few books, then you quit when the steam was really building. If you liked the Seanchan and Forsaken-squabbling then there is no reason to not have read the final books (ahem: especially as they are sitting in our house). Jordan died as I was reading the last one, and that was very disheartening, but looking back I'm still glad I read them. For me, good fantasy is an interesting, complex and richly detailed world, and Jordan more than met the bar on all of this, and threw in a buch of entertainment and plot twists for good measure.

[Apeiron]

I don't think you're doing the series justice thefellswooper. In my opinion there are huge personality differences between the various women. It is true that most women are strong-willed and have tempers, but that is the way women are in this world - they haven't been subdued for millenniums like in ours. To say that most (including all prominent ones) women have strong personalities and are intelligent does not equate them having the same personalities.

The most often heard criticism of the books is that they slowed down too much. I've read all 11 of the main series one after the other, and then did New Spring. I guess it will be annoying to wait years for the next book and then to discover that it only continues a short period in one or two of the storylines rather than continuing with the main issues, but to me that is no problem. The intricate detail of the world and the attention paid to smaller characters, and the distinct storylines given to the main characters (especially Mat <3) is exactly what made this series so great imo.

[Apeiron]

Book 11 in the main series closed of some major plot lines and moved a lot faster than Book 10, so you might want to struggle through 10 just to get to 11. Obviously I'm hoping that 12 will be everything it is promising to be.

[Sabbie]

Mmm I loved New Spring actually. I thought it particularly great because I read it in between 3 and 4 I think, and it made me look at Moiraine and Siuan differently. I understood their position more than before.

I totally disagree with thefellswooper by the way. I do see major differences in the characters. I do like Egwene for example, and Elayne a lot less. They're always fierce because that is simply the position women are in in that world.

Loial (sp?) rocks, so don't be all mean about Ogiers

And Rhuidean was indeed great. I was totally absorbed in the story at that point, found it hard to stop reading etc.

Anyway, I've started on the 5th book right now

[carrotflowers]

Obviously I'm hoping that 12 will be everything it is promising to be.

I heard that Jordan recounted the end of the series in oral storyteller style to a couple close family members, shortly before he died. How cool would it have been to be sitting there hearing it that way? And I believe one of those people is to be involved in producing the last book, although I haven't really kept up to date on it.

[thefellswooper]

I don't think you're doing the series justice thefellswooper. In my opinion there are huge personality differences between the various women. It is true that most women are strong-willed and have tempers, but that is the way women are in this world - they haven't been subdued for millenniums like in ours. To say that most (including all prominent ones) women have strong personalities and are intelligent does not equate them having the same personalities.

I didn't say they were intelligent

The most often heard criticism of the books is that they slowed down too much.

I would never accuse the books of slowing down, since the pace was admirably set in the very first book when, for no particular reason, it took 200 hundred pages for Rand and Mat to get from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. 

Obviously, I know mine is going to be the minority view in this thread.

[carrotflowers]

Mmm I loved New Spring actually. I thought it particularly great because I read it in between 3 and 4 I think, and it made me look at Moiraine and Siuan differently. I understood their position more than before.

I bet the timing of when I read it had a distinct affect on how much I liked it. As you are still reading the series it could almost be lovely supplemental material, but since I read it after I was done with the rest, I wanted more of the epic pace and scope of the other books.

Enjoy the rest of the books! I'd be interested on your take on the whole thing when you're done.

[Sabbie]

Enjoy the rest of the books! I'd be interested on your take on the whole thing when you're done.

Me too

I can't believe there are still so many people out there who hate the series though. The first time I started reading it I knew this was going to be my all-time favorite

[carrotflowers]

I would never accuse the books of slowing down, since the pace was admirably set in the very first book when, for no particular reason, it took 200 hundred pages for Rand and Mat to get from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. 

Ahem. Lots of great series have their slow downs. What about that whole chapter in LOTR mucking abut in a foggy bog or whatever it was called? Mat & Rand's journey to Caemlyn was a swashbuckling adventure in comparison.

Obviously, I know mine is going to be the minority view in this thread.

There's always that person who dissed LOTR.

[Apeiron]

I didn't say they were intelligent

No you didn't, but it's just as easy a generalization as to notice that they're all strong-willed. Different intelligent people have very different personalities, just as different strong-willed people do. Just as Sabbie said, I find some women a lot nicer than others. If I were Rand, I'd have my favourite

I would never accuse the books of slowing down, since the pace was admirably set in the very first book when, for no particular reason, it took 200 hundred pages for Rand and Mat to get from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. 

For no particular reason, except that it developed the personalities of two main characters, their friendship, and it showed a whole lot of details about the world and its people.