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General Discussions => Health, Fitness, Nutrition, and Medicine => Topic started by: estockly on March 18, 2016, 07:57:06 PM

Title: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 18, 2016, 07:57:06 PM
 So I've heard that he lost weight by cutting calories and restricting carbs, but don't know any details.

This should prove interesting:

Monday, March 21
The Dr. Oz Show Magician Penn Jillette tells how he lost 110 pounds; Shaun T’s five-minute workout. (N)
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Friendly Angel on March 18, 2016, 08:20:29 PM
He talks a lot about it on his podcast, and has had his weight loss instructor on for interviews... and he's written a book so that's probably why he's making the rounds, although I don't think it's been published yet.

(http://media.mnn.com/assets/images/2015/04/fuhrman.jpg)
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 18, 2016, 09:26:42 PM
Wow.
Im pretty disappointed to hear he will be going on Oz. I thought better of him.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Simon Jester on March 18, 2016, 10:40:08 PM
Wow.
Im pretty disappointed to hear he will be going on Oz. I thought better of him.

Novella was on Oz do you think less of him?
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/watch-steve-novella-on-the-dr-oz-show-on-tuesday/

just because he will be on the show does not mean he will be agreeing with the snake oil salesmen, I'm hoping for a decent discussion where Penn makes him look stuped
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 18, 2016, 11:18:44 PM
Wow.
Im pretty disappointed to hear he will be going on Oz. I thought better of him.

Novella was on Oz do you think less of him?
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/watch-steve-novella-on-the-dr-oz-show-on-tuesday/

just because he will be on the show does not mean he will be agreeing with the snake oil salesmen, I'm hoping for a decent discussion where Penn makes him look stuped


It's not like him going on the Oz show is going to legitimize Oz.

Oz has a huge audience, and they'll be very interested in what Teller has to say, and Teller is interested in reaching them.

He'd probably go on Oprah if she was still doing her show (and even bigger audience).

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 19, 2016, 01:05:09 AM
He talks a lot about it on his podcast, and has had his weight loss instructor on for interviews... and he's written a book so that's probably why he's making the rounds, although I don't think it's been published yet.

(http://media.mnn.com/assets/images/2015/04/fuhrman.jpg)


Joel Fuhrman was a vegan last time I talked to him, although that was like 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: PB67 on March 19, 2016, 01:11:04 AM
Most sources claimed he went vegan and ate only 1000 calories per day. A massive deficit for someone his size and probably something that shouldn't be done without medical supervision.

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 19, 2016, 06:52:21 AM
Wow.
Im pretty disappointed to hear he will be going on Oz. I thought better of him.

Novella was on Oz do you think less of him?
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/watch-steve-novella-on-the-dr-oz-show-on-tuesday/

just because he will be on the show does not mean he will be agreeing with the snake oil salesmen, I'm hoping for a decent discussion where Penn makes him look stuped
My impression is that Penn is going on to promote his preferred weightloss method?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Johnny Slick on March 19, 2016, 08:32:33 AM
This is all well and good, but is he going to rap?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O5IHVhWj0
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on March 19, 2016, 10:25:48 AM
He talks a lot about it on his podcast, and has had his weight loss instructor on for interviews... and he's written a book so that's probably why he's making the rounds, although I don't think it's been published yet.

(http://media.mnn.com/assets/images/2015/04/fuhrman.jpg)

This looks pretty sensible to me. Of course the hard part is portion control. This looks like a healthy, balanced diet. But you can gain weight, maintain weight, or lose weight on this (or any other system) depending on how many calories you eat, and how many you burn.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 11:00:22 AM
Most sources claimed he went vegan and ate only 1000 calories per day. A massive deficit for someone his size and probably something that shouldn't be done without medical supervision.

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 19, 2016, 01:28:00 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on March 19, 2016, 01:32:40 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

I would not characterize the above chart as high-carb, low-fat. I'd characterize it as balanced.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 19, 2016, 01:53:31 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

He is.  But we all know that there is no one dietary regime that suits everyone. 

I think the above diet could be improved with the addition of whole fat dairy products, liver and no restriction on pasture raised beef and lamb for most very active people that want to look to avoiding heart disease, sarcopenia and osteoporosis in their dotage.... at least that's where  put my money.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 02:11:34 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.

You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

I see no charity in any my posts on this topic.

I am being, characteristically, as objective and as accurate as possible.

Not sure where you get the "high-carb low-fat" assessment. The pie chart doesn't show that at all.

This diet pretty much eliminates fast simple carbs (refined sugars, processed foods and flours). It includes complex starches (beans; whole grains; fruits). It limits potatos. The vegetables listed are all allowed on a LCHF diet.

The fruits wouldn't be allowed on LCHF.

From what I know so far I'd say this is a moderate carb; moderate fat diet. It's probably very similar to the low GI or low GL diets.

Probably not as effective or healthy as LCHF, but probably more effective and healthy than LFHC-CR or just CR.



Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 02:13:05 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

I would not characterize the above chart as high-carb, low-fat. I'd characterize it as balanced.

Balanced? That's a word that has lost all meaning and relevance in discussing diet.

It's the same as saying "I think it's good."

What, exactly, is the criteria for what is balanced and what is not balanced?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 19, 2016, 02:38:20 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

I would not characterize the above chart as high-carb, low-fat. I'd characterize it as balanced.

Balanced? That's a word that has lost all meaning and relevance in discussing diet.

It's the same as saying "I think it's good."

What, exactly, is the criteria for what is balanced and what is not balanced?

I asked just that in another thread... no answer.  Maybe there isn't one.

Mark Hyman didn't think it was a useful term in a recent interview.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on March 19, 2016, 05:04:35 PM

Fuhrman's diet isn't vegan or vegetarian, but it would be easy to modify it.


You're being uncharacteristically charitable toward a high-carb, low-fat diet.

I would not characterize the above chart as high-carb, low-fat. I'd characterize it as balanced.

Balanced? That's a word that has lost all meaning and relevance in discussing diet.

It's the same as saying "I think it's good."

What, exactly, is the criteria for what is balanced and what is not balanced?


Balanced means that it has carbs AND fats AND protein, all in reasonable proportions. I.e. proportions recommended by most nutritionists not committed to one particular style of fad diet or another. As an example, a diet that prohibits or severely restricts any one of those three broad categories is not balanced.

We do have some common ground, though. I regard simple carbs such as white bread, white rice, and sugar as unhealthy, though I do use sugar (in moderation) because it tastes good. White bread and white rice have no taste so I eat them only when there is no alternative, such as at a restaurant when traveling. (Meat I won't eat even if there is no alternative, but that's a moral, rather than a health consideration.)

I asked just that in another thread... no answer.  Maybe there isn't one.

If I didn't answer the question it might be because you asked it in a thread I was not participating in at the time, or I just didn't notice it. I think it's the kind of question I'd have answered if I'd noticed it, but I make no effort to keep up with all threads, and sometimes I leave threads when they seem to get repetitive. I imagine you'll not care for my answer, though.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 05:26:34 PM
Balanced means that it has carbs AND fats AND protein, all in reasonable proportions. I.e. proportions recommended by most nutritionists not committed to one particular style of fad diet or another. As an example, a diet that prohibits or severely restricts any one of those three broad categories is not balanced.

So balanced isn't an objective description but totally subjective. "Reasonable proportions" and "proportions recommended by most nutritionists".

Only in diet and nutrition does a majority opinion define what "balanced" means.

BTW, there is always an alternative to eating white bread and other simple carbs (or even meat for that matter). It's called not eating them.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: PB67 on March 19, 2016, 05:59:48 PM


Balanced means that it has carbs AND fats AND protein, all in reasonable proportions. I.e. proportions recommended by most nutritionists not committed to one particular style of fad diet or another. As an example, a diet that prohibits or severely restricts any one of those three broad categories is not balanced.

So balanced isn't an objective description but totally subjective. "Reasonable proportions" and "proportions recommended by most nutritionists".

Only in diet and nutrition does a majority opinion define what "balanced" means.

BTW, there is always an alternative to eating white bread and other simple carbs (or even meat for that matter). It's called not eating them.

It's called a consensus. Not exactly unheard of.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 06:20:08 PM


Balanced means that it has carbs AND fats AND protein, all in reasonable proportions. I.e. proportions recommended by most nutritionists not committed to one particular style of fad diet or another. As an example, a diet that prohibits or severely restricts any one of those three broad categories is not balanced.

So balanced isn't an objective description but totally subjective. "Reasonable proportions" and "proportions recommended by most nutritionists".

Only in diet and nutrition does a majority opinion define what "balanced" means.

BTW, there is always an alternative to eating white bread and other simple carbs (or even meat for that matter). It's called not eating them.

It's called a consensus. Not exactly unheard of.

Technically majority opinion is not necessarily the same as consensus

And "balanced" is not defined by consensus or majority opinion (except in diet and nutrition).

It's become one of those feel good words that has lost it's original meaning and just means "we like it" (in diet and nutrition).

If a diet were 33% Fat; 33% Carb 33% protein, that could be considered balanced, but the consensus and the majority opinion is that's too much protein, unless it's a high calorie diet, since the optimal amount of protein is based on weight, not a percentage of calories.

If a diet were 20% fat 60% Carb 20% protein, that could meet the majority opinion about what's "balanced," but by any reasonable definition of balance, it's way out of balance.  Particularly considering that fats and protein are essential nutrients, but carbs are not.

Also,  while those proportions are within the dietary guidelines for macronutrient proportions, there is not consensus that it is "balanced".

But saying "balanced" is whatever the majority opinion or consensus among experts say it is, doesn't answer the question:

What proportions are considered balanced?  If you're able to look at a diet and say "That looks balanced" then you must have criteria, right? Or is "balanced" like pornography, can't define it, but know it when you see it?


Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 19, 2016, 07:06:40 PM
I like the 20/20/60 but that's 60% fat.  That is very balanced for my lifestyle.  I have plenty of energy, need only eat two meals a day, never hungry and have excellent blood tests.  Got a little six pack, too.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 19, 2016, 07:29:31 PM
I like the 20/20/60 but that's 60% fat.  That is very balanced for my lifestyle.  I have plenty of energy, need only eat two meals a day, never hungry and have excellent blood tests.  Got a little six pack, too.

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat. Any more carbs and I start adding fat back.

I wouldn't consider that "balanced" nor would I consider "balance" a virtue.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 19, 2016, 10:27:26 PM
Not sure where you get the "high-carb low-fat" assessment. The pie chart doesn't show that at all.

Because the diet contains almost no sources of concentrated protein, and the only significant source of fat is nuts/seeds, which can constitute as little as 10% of the diet, in which case the diet would be on the order of 80/10/10 carb/protein/fat.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 12:47:54 AM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on March 20, 2016, 08:52:20 AM
Balanced means that it has carbs AND fats AND protein, all in reasonable proportions. I.e. proportions recommended by most nutritionists not committed to one particular style of fad diet or another. As an example, a diet that prohibits or severely restricts any one of those three broad categories is not balanced.

So balanced isn't an objective description but totally subjective. "Reasonable proportions" and "proportions recommended by most nutritionists".

Only in diet and nutrition does a majority opinion define what "balanced" means.

BTW, there is always an alternative to eating white bread and other simple carbs (or even meat for that matter). It's called not eating them.

As PB67 already pointed out, it's called consensus, and it's one of the foundations of all science. And as I think I pointed out, I seldom eat simple carbs, other than a small amount of sugar. Most things are not harmful in moderation. I will go hungry rather than eat meat because I choose not to support the killing of animals, but I see no reason to go hungry when I'm at a restaurant that offers no complex carbs.

I will give you this however: I made a poor choice of words when I referred to "most nutritionists." I should have referred instead to the consensus among those nutritionists who base their conclusions upon evidence rather than a quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets extant.

And as I've said before, I have more confidence in the Mayo Clinic and other similarly scientific sources than in the guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Plastiq on March 20, 2016, 01:32:19 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 20, 2016, 01:39:00 PM
No one is talking about a
Quote
guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
or
Quote
quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets
other than you. 

The consensus has certainly changed in nutrition, take a look at the USDA 2016 guidelines. 
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 20, 2016, 01:41:27 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

I thought one would have to exceptionally increase one's protein intake from 20% to cause any 'expense' to one's kidneys.   
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 20, 2016, 01:50:22 PM

Not sure where you get the "high-carb low-fat" assessment. The pie chart doesn't show that at all.

Because the diet contains almost no sources of concentrated protein, and the only significant source of fat is nuts/seeds, which can constitute as little as 10% of the diet, in which case the diet would be on the order of 80/10/10 carb/protein/fat.

I think you are right. Not much fat at all.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 20, 2016, 01:55:48 PM

No one is talking about a
Quote
guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
or
Quote
quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets
other than you. 

The consensus has certainly changed in nutrition, take a look at the USDA 2016 guidelines.

Except percentage of calories is not the best way to gage the effect of protein. It's complicated. It's the amount of protein beyond what your body can use that can cause issues. If you're active and eating relatively low calories you can eat a higher percentage of calories from protein. But if you're not active and are eating a high calorie diet, a relatively low percentage of protein could be unhealthy.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 20, 2016, 02:50:13 PM
https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/articles.aspx
 (https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/articles.aspx)
I'm unable to find any peer reviewed clinical studies for this diet.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 02:59:03 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

Excess protein?  Yeah, seriously.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 03:03:57 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

I thought one would have to exceptionally increase one's protein intake from 20% to cause any 'expense' to one's kidneys.

I don't think anybody really knows, so you are left with basic science to determine the risk vs. benefit of consuming excess protein.  Since I can't think of any benefit to consuming more protein than your body needs, so the risk/benefit of infinitely high.  On the other hand, you have to weigh the risks and benefits of consuming the other macronutrients as well, and that is more contentious.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Plastiq on March 20, 2016, 03:09:28 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

Excess protein?  Yeah, seriously.

I understand it's never been shown that a high protein intake can actually harm healthy kidneys (and even people with problems seem to tolerate it better than previously assumed). If you have anything that contradicts that, I'd be interested.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 03:10:31 PM

No one is talking about a
Quote
guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
or
Quote
quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets
other than you. 

The consensus has certainly changed in nutrition, take a look at the USDA 2016 guidelines.

Except percentage of calories is not the best way to gage the effect of protein. It's complicated. It's the amount of protein beyond what your body can use that can cause issues. If you're active and eating relatively low calories you can eat a higher percentage of calories from protein. But if you're not active and are eating a high calorie diet, a relatively low percentage of protein could be unhealthy.

As far as I am aware, absolute protein requirement, increases fairly linearly with energy expenditure, or equivalently, with total energy requirements.  Therefore, your protein requirement as a percentage of total energy requirement remains fairly constant as you vary your amount of physical activity. 
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 03:12:15 PM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

Excess protein?  Yeah, seriously.

I understand it's never been shown that a high protein intake can actually harm healthy kidneys (and even people with problems seem to tolerate it better than previously assumed). If you have anything that contradicts that, I'd be interested.

I don't have anything specific.  As I said in another post a few minutes ago, in a sense, the risk/benefit ratio for consuming more protein than necessary is infinitely high—so why do it.
Title: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 20, 2016, 03:13:21 PM


No one is talking about a
Quote
guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
or
Quote
quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets
other than you. 

The consensus has certainly changed in nutrition, take a look at the USDA 2016 guidelines.

Except percentage of calories is not the best way to gage the effect of protein. It's complicated. It's the amount of protein beyond what your body can use that can cause issues. If you're active and eating relatively low calories you can eat a higher percentage of calories from protein. But if you're not active and are eating a high calorie diet, a relatively low percentage of protein could be unhealthy.

As far as I am aware, absolute protein requirement, increases fairly linearly with energy expenditure, or equivalently, with total energy requirements.  Therefore, your protein requirement as a percentage of total energy requirement remains fairly constant as you vary your amount of physical activity.

In a calorie restricted weight loss diet where calories and proportions are relatively fixed?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 20, 2016, 03:17:46 PM


No one is talking about a
Quote
guru for any one narrowly-defined diet.
or
Quote
quasi-religious belief or commercial interest in one or another of the many fad diets
other than you. 

The consensus has certainly changed in nutrition, take a look at the USDA 2016 guidelines.

Except percentage of calories is not the best way to gage the effect of protein. It's complicated. It's the amount of protein beyond what your body can use that can cause issues. If you're active and eating relatively low calories you can eat a higher percentage of calories from protein. But if you're not active and are eating a high calorie diet, a relatively low percentage of protein could be unhealthy.

As far as I am aware, absolute protein requirement, increases fairly linearly with energy expenditure, or equivalently, with total energy requirements.  Therefore, your protein requirement as a percentage of total energy requirement remains fairly constant as you vary your amount of physical activity.

In a calorie restricted weight loss diet where calories and proportions are relatively fixed?

No.  I was assuming energy balance.  In energy deficit, protein requirement increase as a percentage of calories, and for an athlete, probably even in absolute amounts over requirement under energy balance.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Plastiq on March 21, 2016, 07:42:49 AM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

Excess protein?  Yeah, seriously.

I understand it's never been shown that a high protein intake can actually harm healthy kidneys (and even people with problems seem to tolerate it better than previously assumed). If you have anything that contradicts that, I'd be interested.

I don't have anything specific.  As I said in another post a few minutes ago, in a sense, the risk/benefit ratio for consuming more protein than necessary is infinitely high—so why do it.

I don't understand, how is it infinitely high? We seem to be well-equipped to deal with it.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Fast Eddie B on March 21, 2016, 09:19:17 AM
Quote

I don't understand, how is it infinitely high? We seem to be well-equipped to deal with it.

I'm pretty sure he just meant the mathematical conceit of having zero as the denominator in a risk/reward ratio.

With zero reward assumed, all you have is risk.

I think. Though it's an odd way to put it.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
Back on topic, I'll record Dr. Oz today and watch this evening.

From what I've read Dr. Furhman isn't his only diet guru. There another guy, Ray Cronise, who uses cold baths somehow.

The Penn Jillette Diet – 105 Pounds in 86 Days
http://calorielab.com/news/2015/06/12/penn-jillette-diet/

Ray Cronise - disrupting dogma with innovative ideas | about.me
https://about.me/raycronise
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 11:45:34 AM

I'm probably around 5/20/75. But my protein may be higher, at the expense of fat.

At the expense of your kidneys, anyway.

Seriously?

Excess protein?  Yeah, seriously.

I understand it's never been shown that a high protein intake can actually harm healthy kidneys (and even people with problems seem to tolerate it better than previously assumed). If you have anything that contradicts that, I'd be interested.

I don't have anything specific.  As I said in another post a few minutes ago, in a sense, the risk/benefit ratio for consuming more protein than necessary is infinitely high—so why do it.

I don't understand, how is it infinitely high? We seem to be well-equipped to deal with it.

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Friendly Angel on March 21, 2016, 12:14:35 PM
Back on topic, I'll record Dr. Oz today and watch this evening.

From what I've read Dr. Furhman isn't his only diet guru. There another guy, Ray Cronise, who uses cold baths somehow.

The Penn Jillette Diet – 105 Pounds in 86 Days
http://calorielab.com/news/2015/06/12/penn-jillette-diet/

Ray Cronise - disrupting dogma with innovative ideas | about.me
https://about.me/raycronise

Yes, he does talk about Cronise a lot.  Had him on to discuss extended fasting once.  Ray and Penn both seem to be sponsored by the wifi connected weight scale.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 12:32:42 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 12:49:36 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.

So?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 01:27:06 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.

So?

So all we have is a vague claim that eating some amount of protein over what is "required," which is not at all defined, has no benefit.

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Simon Jester on March 21, 2016, 01:37:48 PM
here it is

http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/penn-jillette-s-incredible-weight-loss-was-not-magic-trick

edit: they dont show the whole thing but do cut around if you watch through all the videos.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 03:19:33 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.

So?

So all we have is a vague claim that eating some amount of protein over what is "required," which is not at all defined, has no benefit.

Your lack of education is showing again.  Protein requirements are quite well understood. 
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 21, 2016, 04:16:33 PM
1.5-2.0 gms/kg (body weight) for active adults. Up to 30 gms/meal.  At least that's what is generally out there.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 21, 2016, 04:35:23 PM
1.5-2.0 gms/kg (body weight) for active adults. Up to 30 gms/meal.  At least that's what is generally out there.
Thats seemingly rounded up to sell supplements and because athletes dont like math.
Its also not the recommended amount but the upper limit of what can be processed by an active athlete and then rounded up again. The rest is, as they say, expensive pee.
This article cites some studies about it, though Im not qualified to make much of them.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 06:10:04 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.

So?

So all we have is a vague claim that eating some amount of protein over what is "required," which is not at all defined, has no benefit.

Your lack of education is showing again.  Protein requirements are quite well understood.

No, you're missing the point (willfully?) Protein requirements are not fixed, but vary in any individual. You're being vague about what's required, and then claiming (with no support) that above that is no benefit and significant risk.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 06:41:37 PM

risk/benefit = risk/0 = ∞ for any risk > 0.

This discussion is predicated on the assumption that there is no benefit to eating protein in excess of requirements, or above a certain percentage of calories.

I dispute both.

So?

So all we have is a vague claim that eating some amount of protein over what is "required," which is not at all defined, has no benefit.

Your lack of education is showing again.  Protein requirements are quite well understood.

No, you're missing the point (willfully?) Protein requirements are not fixed, but vary in any individual. You're being vague about what's required, and then claiming (with no support) that above that is no benefit and significant risk.

As I said before, protein requirements are proportional to energy requirements in healthy adults.  For completeness, one could adjust for pregnancy, menstruation, lactation, growth (either childhood or adult body building), and healing. but if you're fixated on the adjustments, you're missing the big picture.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 07:34:12 PM

As I said before, protein requirements are proportional to energy requirements in healthy adults.  For completeness, one could adjust for pregnancy, menstruation, lactation, growth (either childhood or adult body building), and healing. but if you're fixated on the adjustments, you're missing the big picture.

You are still missing the point.   

There are minimal requirements; requirements to replenish; requirements to build muscle.  You are being vague about "requirements."

Plus, you seem to be saying that intake above the requirements entails some significant risk.

You ignore the body's ability to make glucose from protein in excess of the body's requirements.

It's only when protein intake is above its capacity for gluconeogenesis that health issues arise.

And you cannot safely specify a percentage of intake of calories as protein in the general sense you were. For someone very active, on a low-carb, low calorie diet, that percentage is much higher than for someone not very active, eating a high carb, high calorie diet, that percentage is fairly low.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 07:51:40 PM

As I said before, protein requirements are proportional to energy requirements in healthy adults.  For completeness, one could adjust for pregnancy, menstruation, lactation, growth (either childhood or adult body building), and healing. but if you're fixated on the adjustments, you're missing the big picture.

You are still missing the point.   

One of us is, anyway.

Quote
There are minimal requirements; requirements to replenish; requirements to build muscle.  You are being vague about "requirements."

And, it's you!

Quote
Plus, you seem to be saying that intake above the requirements entails some significant risk.

ORLY? 

Quote
You ignore the body's ability to make glucose from protein in excess of the body's requirements.

ORLY?  And what is the fate of the nitrogen in gluconeogenesis?

Quote
It's only when protein intake is above its capacity for gluconeogenesis that health issues arise.

ORLY?

Quote
And you cannot safely specify a percentage of intake of calories as protein in the general sense you were. For someone very active, on a low-carb, low calorie diet, that percentage is much higher than for someone not very active, eating a high carb, high calorie diet, that percentage is fairly low.

Do you have Alzheimers?  I already said that I'm assuming energy balance.  Furthermore, my whole point is that protein intake is proportional to energy expenditures, so why are you talking about physical activity?  It's pretty clear now which one of us is missing the other's point.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 21, 2016, 08:23:22 PM
The video of the droz segment isnt available in my region.
Did anyone watch it and does anyone have an opinion?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 08:56:42 PM

 
Quote
Plus, you seem to be saying that intake above the requirements entails some significant risk.

ORLY?

Yes really. Are you saying you didn't say that?

Quote
Quote
You ignore the body's ability to make glucose from protein in excess of the body's requirements.

ORLY?
 

Yes, really. You haven't mentioned it in this thread until now, effectively ignoring it.

Quote
And what is the fate of the nitrogen in gluconeogenesis?

It's expelled in urine.
Quote
Quote
It's only when protein intake is above its capacity for gluconeogenesis that health issues arise.

ORLY?

So you're saying that's not the case? That any protein intake above requirements entails health issues?
Quote
Quote
And you cannot safely specify a percentage of intake of calories as protein in the general sense you were. For someone very active, on a low-carb, low calorie diet, that percentage is much higher than for someone not very active, eating a high carb, high calorie diet, that percentage is fairly low.

Do you have Alzheimers?  I already said that I'm assuming energy balance.  Furthermore, my whole point is that protein intake is proportional to energy expenditures, so why are you talking about physical activity?  It's pretty clear now which one of us is missing the other's point.


You're still assuming energy balance? Nobody else is. I thought you'd realize your mistake and corrected yourself.

How is it you assume energy balance in a discussion of weight loss?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 08:57:22 PM
The video of the droz segment isnt available in my region.
Did anyone watch it and does anyone have an opinion?

Not yet. It's on TIVO.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Fast Eddie B on March 21, 2016, 08:59:50 PM
We got some basic nutrition education when I got my Personal Trainer certification from the ACSM.

When discussing the need for excess protein when adding muscle, the following thought experiment stuck with me...

Suppose at some point in your life you literally doubled your muscle mass. Well, from birth to roughly 16 lbs that's exactly what you did. And it was likely done on mother's milk or similar substitute.

Interestingly, NOT very high in protein:

Mature human milk contains 3%--5% fat, 0.8%--0.9% protein, 6.9%--7.2% carbohydrate calculated as lactose, and 0.2% mineral constituents expressed as ash. Its energy content is 60--75 kcal/100 ml. Protein content is markedly higher and carbohydrate content lower in colostrum than in mature milk.

Not to put forth any particular opinion, just to point out that large amounts of protein are not required for muscle growth, which among adults is unlikely to exceed about 10 lbs per year with training.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 09:09:44 PM
[Nothing worth quoting.]

You really should try reading for comprehension.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 09:12:32 PM
We got some basic nutrition education when I got my Personal Trainer certification from the ACSM.

When discussing the need for excess protein when adding muscle, the following thought experiment stuck with me...

Suppose at some point in your life you literally doubled your muscle mass. Well, from birth to roughly 16 lbs that's exactly what you did. And it was likely done on mother's milk or similar substitute.

Interestingly, NOT very high in protein:

Mature human milk contains 3%--5% fat, 0.8%--0.9% protein, 6.9%--7.2% carbohydrate calculated as lactose, and 0.2% mineral constituents expressed as ash. Its energy content is 60--75 kcal/100 ml. Protein content is markedly higher and carbohydrate content lower in colostrum than in mature milk.

Not to put forth any particular opinion, just to point out that large amounts of protein are not required for muscle growth, which among adults is unlikely to exceed about 10 lbs per year with training.

Not exactly. First, muscle (and other lean tissue) are always breaking down, and you need a significant amount of protein to just maintain muscle mass. (especially during weight loss and calorie deficit) This accelerates with exercise.

The amount of protein needed to build muscle is above and beyond.
 
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Fast Eddie B on March 21, 2016, 09:37:18 PM
Not exactly. First, muscle (and other lean tissue) are always breaking down, and you need a significant amount of protein to just maintain muscle mass. (especially during weight loss and calorie deficit) This accelerates with exercise.

The amount of protein needed to build muscle is above and beyond.

Granted. My point, if there was one, was that you do not need a LOT more.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: jt512 on March 21, 2016, 09:40:54 PM

Quote
J Ren Nutr. 2015 Jan;25(1):1-5.

High-protein diets and renal health. Marckmann P, Osther P, Pedersen AN, Jespersen B.

 High-protein diets (i.e., protein content of more than 25% of energy or more than 2 g/kg body weight per day) based on meat and dairy products are repeatedly promoted for weight reduction and better health, but the evidence supporting these notions is quite dubious. As described in the present review, there is a reason to be concerned about adverse effects of such diets, including glomerular hyperfiltration, hypertensive effects of a concomitant increase in dietary sodium, and an increased risk of nephrolithiasis. These diet-induced physiological consequences might lead to an increase in the prevalence of chronic kidney disease in the general population without preexisting kidney disease. Accordingly, we find medical reasons to refrain from promoting high-protein diets, in particular those based on meat and dairy products, until clear-cut evidence for the safety and for the superiority of such diets on human health has been provided.

Copyright © 2015 National Kidney Foundation, Inc. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. PMID: 25091135

Quote
Am J Kidney Dis. 2004 Dec;44(6):950-62.

High-protein diets: potential effects on the kidney in renal health and disease.

Friedman AN.

High-protein (HP) weight-loss diets have existed in the United States for decades, although their popularity has recently surged as obesity has become more common. Despite their widespread use, valid concerns exist that HP diets may induce clinically important alterations in renal function and health. HP consumption has been found, under various conditions, to lead to glomerular hyperfiltration and hyperemia; acceleration of chronic kidney disease (CKD); increased proteinuria; diuresis, natriuresis, and kaliuresis with associated blood pressure changes; increased risk for nephrolithiasis; and various metabolic alterations. Unfortunately, a comprehensive understanding of the implications of HP diets is limited by the lack of a universally accepted definition for HP intake, a paucity of rigorous long-term human interventional studies that necessitate relying on short-term or fairly circumstantial evidence, and sparse data on the effects of HP consumption in obese individuals. In addition, matters are further complicated because the renal impact HP diets for limited periods is most likely different than that for more chronic consumption. Nevertheless, although there are no clear renal-related contraindications to HP diets in individuals with healthy kidney function, the theoretical risks should be reviewed carefully with the patient. In contrast, HP diets have the potential for significant harm in individuals with CKD and should be avoided if possible. Because CKD is often a silent disease, all individuals should undergo a screening serum creatinine measurement and urinary dipstick test for proteinuria before the initiation of such a diet.

So, there's no clear-cut benefit to excess protein consumption, safety has not been clearly demonstrated, and there are theoretical risks.  That's enough for me. 

No benefit and possible harm implies an infinite risk:benefit ratio.

BTW, I'm talking long-term.  As a temporary weight-loss strategy, if you find it useful and have no contraindications, then fine.
Title: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 11:04:35 PM
Watching now. no animal products no refined grains stupid-low sugar salt and oil. no portion control
Title: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 21, 2016, 11:06:50 PM
Watching now. no animal products no refined grains stupid-low sugar salt and oil. no portion control

His new book. "Presto: How I Made 100 Pound Disappear"
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 22, 2016, 12:24:07 AM
Watching now. no animal products no refined grains stupid-low sugar salt and oil. no portion control

So I just mixed up a dish of Cayenne pepper, cocoa powder and blue berries. Not great. Not bad, but not great. Much smaller portion than Penn had.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Simon Jester on March 22, 2016, 01:04:36 AM
Watching now. no animal products no refined grains stupid-low sugar salt and oil. no portion control

So I just mixed up a dish of Cayenne pepper, cocoa powder and blue berries. Not great. Not bad, but not great. Much smaller portion than Penn had.

Perhaps its better with the blackberries?

You gotta admit it was funny when Oz took a big bite of the Cayenne pepper started crying and almost puked.  I have to wonder if Penn did that on purpose or if Oz overplayed it.

Quote
Eat Like a man Dr Oz Eat Like a man!
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on March 22, 2016, 09:43:07 AM
If Penn is involved and you are wondering if there is a "fix", don't wonder.

It's a fix.  (I say that as a Penn fan, btw.)

Dr. Oz knows what happens when you eat cayenne pepper.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 22, 2016, 10:35:48 AM
So...was this a bait and switch for Penn to engage americas premier woo pedlar or did he actually just go on the show amicably to sell his book?
Because latter leaves my already diminishing respect for him, further diminished.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on March 22, 2016, 10:41:10 AM
So...was this a bait and switch for Penn to engage americas premier woo pedlar or did he actually just go on the show amicably to sell his book?
Because latter leaves my already diminishing respect for him, further diminished.

As a weekly listener to Penn's podcast, I can tell you, it's to sell his book.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 22, 2016, 10:53:39 AM
They didn't engage or disagree that much. Penn "corrected" Oz on one fact. They also didn't offer much in the way of information (nutrition, science, medicine or even the diet). But we learned Penn can juggle better than Oz
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Simon Jester on March 22, 2016, 02:18:54 PM
So...was this a bait and switch for Penn to engage americas premier woo pedlar or did he actually just go on the show amicably to sell his book?
Because latter leaves my already diminishing respect for him, further diminished.

He went on a well known Woo TV show with millions of viewers just to sell his book?  Fantastic!

My respect and awe just doubled. I hope he sells a million copies of his book to all the believers in woo which mite just bring them one step closer to skepticism. Its like an Atheist being invited to a sell his book in the middle of a church service.  His Facebook page linking the video says

Quote
I'm on Dr. Oz today. I don't agree with everything he's ever said, but I agree with what I said. At least for now.

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on March 22, 2016, 02:24:05 PM
So...was this a bait and switch for Penn to engage americas premier woo pedlar or did he actually just go on the show amicably to sell his book?
Because latter leaves my already diminishing respect for him, further diminished.

He went on a well known Woo TV show with millions of viewers just to sell his book?  Fantastic!

My respect and awe just doubled. I hope he sells a million copies of his book to all the believers in woo which mite just bring them one step closer to skepticism. Its like an Atheist being invited to a sell his book in the middle of a church service.  His Facebook page linking the video says

Quote
I'm on Dr. Oz today. I don't agree with everything he's ever said, but I agree with what I said. At least for now.

Some folks were very critical of Penn's decision to appear many times on Glenn Beck's Fox show back when that was a thing.

Penn's response was essentially: "How many times is Glenn Beck's audience going to hear someone say 'There's no such thing as God'? Isn't it good for his audience to hear someone say that?"

It's a pretty good response.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 22, 2016, 02:36:14 PM
It is a pretty good response. And it would apply here if he challenged Oz on anything he said.
The appearance will drastically increase the sales of his book and thats a totally legit reason to go on. I just respect him less for it.
When it comes to someone like Oz, my view is that if you arent challenging him, you are tacitly endorsing him and bringing him your audience, which makes him money, which keeps him selling woo and damaging peoples health.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 23, 2016, 12:15:40 PM
What did Oz say that should have been challenged?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Simon Jester on March 23, 2016, 02:15:49 PM
I can picture Penn backstage with the producers "Now if he says something nutbally I'm going to call him on it, I'll be really nice about it but you know me..." LOL
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 23, 2016, 04:01:20 PM
What did Oz say that should have been challenged?
What he did or did not say in the segment is irrelevant to me (unless it was "Listen folks, Ive been misleading you all for years and misrepresenting science") he constantly says things that need to be challenged. So much so that he got grilled before congress and still hasnt appeared to change his ways from what I can see.
Just because he may not have spouted any woo to Penns face, does not give him a pass in my book. Your view may be different, not saying you should hold my values.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 23, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
What did Oz say that should have been challenged?
What he did or did not say in the segment is irrelevant to me (unless it was "Listen folks, Ive been misleading you all for years and misrepresenting science") he constantly says things that need to be challenged. So much so that he got grilled before congress and still hasnt appeared to change his ways from what I can see.
Just because he may not have spouted any woo to Penns face, does not give him a pass in my book. Your view may be different, not saying you should hold my values.

Oz is not that bad. He is a qualified surgeon and a medical professional.

The problems with Oz are that sometimes he welcomes purveyors of woo on his show and allows them to go unchallenged, and other times he himself promotes woo.

But that doesn't happen as often as you seem to assume, and most of the time the information he presents is consistent with mainstream medicine.

That doesn't excuse any of his woo, but it's not reasonable to expect someone like Penn (or Novella) to pass up a chance to reach such a large audience.

Nor is it reasonable to expect guests on his show to always point a finger and call him a liar.

Nor do we really know all of what Penn said or did on the show, since we only see an edited version.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 23, 2016, 05:16:19 PM
First of all, Steve went on the show specifically to call Oz out and debate him. If he went on to promote a book or whatever then I would think less of him too.
And yes, it is reasonable to expect someone to pass up a chance to appear on Ozs show specifically because we know his angle and we know how these things can often be edited.
Just because Oz doesnt spew woo every moment of every episode, does not get him a pass from me. He spouts enough and endorses enough woo that he is a net negative in my opinion.
His qualifications mean jack shit to me when he uses them to lend legitimacy to quacks, and now the famous presenter of a show called "Bullshit" has gone on and had an amicable segment with him, thus lending further legitimacy.

Its fine to just say he did it for the money. Thats fine. Its just less ethical than I prefer.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on March 23, 2016, 08:03:09 PM
Oz has certainly changed his mind about eating fat.  He has been a fan for a couple of years.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 23, 2016, 08:14:23 PM
First of all, Steve went on the show specifically to call Oz out and debate him. If he went on to promote a book or whatever then I would think less of him too.
And yes, it is reasonable to expect someone to pass up a chance to appear on Ozs show specifically because we know his angle and we know how these things can often be edited.
Just because Oz doesnt spew woo every moment of every episode, does not get him a pass from me. He spouts enough and endorses enough woo that he is a net negative in my opinion.
His qualifications mean jack shit to me when he uses them to lend legitimacy to quacks, and now the famous presenter of a show called "Bullshit" has gone on and had an amicable segment with him, thus lending further legitimacy.

Its fine to just say he did it for the money. Thats fine. Its just less ethical than I prefer.

I'm not saying he did it for the money. I'm saying he did it to reach the Oz audience. Yes, he wants to reach the Oz audience so he can sell them his book, but chances are Penn believes in what he's doing and believes his book will help people with the same kind of weight problem that he had (most Americans, these days) and he probably wrote the book and promotes it with the best of intentions.

And what mainstream television show or network does not dabble in woo from time to time?

Should anyone selling a science based product (or a product like Penn's that's not really based on science) avoid trying to reach Dr. Oz's audience?

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 23, 2016, 08:49:59 PM
If reaching his audience means legitimising him? And we take the money out of the equation? Yeah, they should pass up the opportunity.
Other shows dabble in woo, they dont make their living from it.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 24, 2016, 04:45:38 PM
Actually, he is fully legitimatized in the eyes of his audience.

The effect is more that appearing on Oz legitimizes Penn with that audience.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Harry Black on March 24, 2016, 05:16:41 PM
I see where you are coming from.
I disagree.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on March 24, 2016, 05:27:59 PM
I also see your point.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: fonebone on April 15, 2016, 09:37:06 AM
(http://assets.coolhunting.com/coolhunting/2013/04/29/large_point-conference-thumb1.jpg)

Does anyone see my point?
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 04, 2017, 11:46:09 AM
I have a buddy who's been on the Furhman plan for 5 months now.

He's down to 170lbs from his 243lb starting point.

I've been inspired to give it a try.

I bought the Fuhrman book "Eat to Live" on Amazon (Penn's diet) and the weight loss aspect seems pretty solid.  There are a couple chapters about cancer fighting "superfood" and "detox" nonsense, but I think overall the diet is clearly healthier than what I'm consuming on the regular now. 

There is a six week plan in the book that I'm going to give a shot.  If the results are good, I'll likely be inspired to continue.  In any case, the fact that the plan allows limitless fresh fruit consumption will probably save me.  I'll eat a 5 lb bag of oranges on my own in a day if left to it......debating picking up Penn's book too....
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on January 04, 2017, 12:00:31 PM
Good Luck.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Mr. Beagle on January 04, 2017, 12:18:04 PM
A key part of my 20+ pound loss last year: Track your weighted average weight, which is a more accurate view than a single day's reading.

7*today
6*yesterday
...
1*six days ago
divide by 28

As long as that guy is going down, even by a little bit, you are good. If not, you step it up for a couple days until it is.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Billzbub on January 04, 2017, 12:19:27 PM
I have a buddy who's been on the Furhman plan for 5 months now.

He's down to 170lbs from his 243lb starting point.

I've been inspired to give it a try.

I bought the Fuhrman book "End of Dieting" on Amazon and the weight loss aspect seems pretty solid.  There are a couple chapters about cancer fighting "superfood" and "detox" nonsense, but I think overall the diet is clearly healthier than what I'm consuming on the regular now. 

There is a six week plan in the book that I'm going to give a shot.  If the results are good, I'll likely be inspired to continue.  In any case, the fact that the plan allows limitless fresh fruit consumption will probably save me.  I'll eat a 5 lb bag of oranges on my own in a day if left to it......debating picking up Penn's book too....

Can you give a tweet-length summary?  It obviously isn't a LCHF diet.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Friendly Angel on January 04, 2017, 12:25:50 PM
A key part of my 20+ pound loss last year: Track your weighted average weight, which is a more accurate view than a single day's reading.

7*today
6*yesterday
...
1*six days ago
divide by 28

As long as that guy is going down, even by a little bit, you are good. If not, you step it up for a couple days until it is.

Yeah, it always bugged me people who would say not to weigh yourself so often - even once a day they'd say is too often - more data is good... you just have to know how to process it.

I want to buy one of those wifi scales that tracks it all for you and shows it on your phone.

(https://www-assets-cdn.withings.com/front/products/body//media/courbe-weight-en.jpg)
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Johnny Slick on January 04, 2017, 12:30:01 PM
I have a buddy who's been on the Furhman plan for 5 months now.

He's down to 170lbs from his 243lb starting point.

I've been inspired to give it a try.

I bought the Fuhrman book "End of Dieting" on Amazon and the weight loss aspect seems pretty solid.  There are a couple chapters about cancer fighting "superfood" and "detox" nonsense, but I think overall the diet is clearly healthier than what I'm consuming on the regular now. 

There is a six week plan in the book that I'm going to give a shot.  If the results are good, I'll likely be inspired to continue.  In any case, the fact that the plan allows limitless fresh fruit consumption will probably save me.  I'll eat a 5 lb bag of oranges on my own in a day if left to it......debating picking up Penn's book too....
I read that as "he's down 170lbs from his original weight of 243" and thought your friend might need treatment for severe anorexia... :o Otherwise, good for him!
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 04, 2017, 12:53:29 PM
I have a buddy who's been on the Furhman plan for 5 months now.

He's down to 170lbs from his 243lb starting point.

I've been inspired to give it a try.

I bought the Fuhrman book "Eat to Live" on Amazon and the weight loss aspect seems pretty solid.  There are a couple chapters about cancer fighting "superfood" and "detox" nonsense, but I think overall the diet is clearly healthier than what I'm consuming on the regular now. 

There is a six week plan in the book that I'm going to give a shot.  If the results are good, I'll likely be inspired to continue.  In any case, the fact that the plan allows limitless fresh fruit consumption will probably save me.  I'll eat a 5 lb bag of oranges on my own in a day if left to it......debating picking up Penn's book too....

Can you give a tweet-length summary?  It obviously isn't a LCHF diet.

Unlimited vegetables excluding white potatoes. (goal 1lb per day)
Unlimited fresh fruit. (goal 4 servings per day)
Unlimited legumes. (goal 1 cup per day)
Limited Whole grains. (limit to 1 cup per day)
Limited Nuts/Seeds. (limit to 1 oz per day if trying to lose weight)
Extremely limited animal products (eggs, "white" chicken/pork, white fish limit to 12oz a week)
No dairy, no sugar, no booze, limited salt, limited oils.

Tofu/Seitan is listed as an unlimited food as well.

I guess that's more than a tweet.

Quote
I read that as "he's down 170lbs from his original weight of 243" and thought your friend might need treatment for severe anorexia... :o Otherwise, good for him!

Yeah, I guess I worded that badly.   It's pretty amazing.  I knew the guy in high school and he now weighs less than he did in high school. He also had a very limited palate, and this plan forced him to eat lots of foods he "didn't like".  Many of which he now "likes".    Even if there is a yoyo effect, reversing 20+ years of weight gain in 5 months is a pretty good thing.  His doctor pretty much wanted to give him a kiss and a hug after he showed up weighing 50lbs less than his last visit.  His blood pressure meds might be going away soon too.  I've got a much more modest goal of 30-40 lbs to lose.  We'll see if it works. 
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on January 04, 2017, 03:48:43 PM
I have a buddy who's been on the Furhman plan for 5 months now.

He's down to 170lbs from his 243lb starting point.

I've been inspired to give it a try.

I bought the Fuhrman book "End of Dieting" on Amazon and the weight loss aspect seems pretty solid.  There are a couple chapters about cancer fighting "superfood" and "detox" nonsense, but I think overall the diet is clearly healthier than what I'm consuming on the regular now. 

There is a six week plan in the book that I'm going to give a shot.  If the results are good, I'll likely be inspired to continue.  In any case, the fact that the plan allows limitless fresh fruit consumption will probably save me.  I'll eat a 5 lb bag of oranges on my own in a day if left to it......debating picking up Penn's book too....

Can you give a tweet-length summary?  It obviously isn't a LCHF diet.

Google Fuhrman.  You have to buy the book to get much off the site, but his pyramid is all you need, really.

Then listen to some Jason Fong lectures.  He is very good crushing the calories in/calories out myth.  Sort of why one needs to treat the ultimate cause not the proximal.  He is keen on fasting and eating well; not very restrictive, actually.  Oh, he is a nephrologist and runs a clinic for weight loss and diabetes treatment.

Here are two lectures at the Vail Colorado Low Carb conference.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/15529/1203-dr-jason-fung-2016-low-carb-vail/
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on January 04, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
...
Unlimited vegetables excluding white potatoes. (goal 1lb per day)
Unlimited fresh fruit. (goal 4 servings per day)
Unlimited legumes. (goal 1 cup per day)
Limited Whole grains. (limit to 1 cup per day)
Limited Nuts/Seeds. (limit to 1 oz per day if trying to lose weight)
Extremely limited animal products (eggs, "white" chicken/pork, white fish limit to 12oz a week)
No dairy, no sugar, no booze, limited salt, limited oils.

Tofu/Seitan is listed as an unlimited food as well.

While I think there's some good basis there, the problem with listing any healthy food as "unlimited" is that I really like most of the healthy fruits and veggies, and if I don't set limits I can gain weight just by eating too much fruit and veggies.

The problem I had with Weight Watchers (a pretty good program on which I lost 25 pounds and reached my goal weight) is that most fruits and veggies are not counted, and I can eat enough calories to gain weight while still remaining on plan, by eating too much of those.

As for "No dairy, sugar, or booze," I am skeptical of any diet that completely excludes any food. Sugar is not good for you, but a little won't hurt. I personally don't like alcohol, because it makes me feel a little dizzy and it muddles my brain, but a small amount won't hurt you. And I think that dairy has a real, beneficial place in a balanced diet. I don't eat meat or poultry, but that's an ethical choice, not a health-related choice.

Tofu is another food I can gain weight on. I love it. Sadly, most people don't know how to prepare it properly and are convinced they don't like it, because they've had it in an Asian restaurant where it's grossly undercooked and under-flavored. Mooshy and tasteless. Mine is firm (because I cook it thoroughly) and delicious, because it's seasoned.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Mr. Beagle on January 04, 2017, 07:00:43 PM
Here is the difference between tracking weighted average weight (the dark heavy line) and actual weight (the gold line). The light green line was my initial target. My body very insistently leveled off a couple pounds above that, but I have held it pretty well. The Excel diet: If Excel says you have flattened, slow down the eating and/or exercise more.

I am recalling, not with good feeling, the couple days of large single-day actual weight drops this summer when I was struggling with an intestinal bug of some kind. It came at an opportune time for leveling the weight loss.

(http://i.imgur.com/IHJgo1O.jpg)
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: GodSlayer on January 04, 2017, 07:51:59 PM
Wow.
Im pretty disappointed to hear he will be going on Oz. I thought better of him.

I'm pretty disappointed he didn't say 'IT'S MAGIC!'
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: The Latinist on January 04, 2017, 07:54:52 PM
Oz has a huge audience, and they'll be very interested in what Teller has to say, and Teller is interested in reaching them.

I know this is months old, but I can't help chiming in that I would be very surprised if Teller had anything at all to say on this subject.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 04, 2017, 08:48:42 PM
...
Unlimited vegetables excluding white potatoes. (goal 1lb per day)
Unlimited fresh fruit. (goal 4 servings per day)
Unlimited legumes. (goal 1 cup per day)
Limited Whole grains. (limit to 1 cup per day)
Limited Nuts/Seeds. (limit to 1 oz per day if trying to lose weight)
Extremely limited animal products (eggs, "white" chicken/pork, white fish limit to 12oz a week)
No dairy, no sugar, no booze, limited salt, limited oils.

Tofu/Seitan is listed as an unlimited food as well.

While I think there's some good basis there, the problem with listing any healthy food as "unlimited" is that I really like most of the healthy fruits and veggies, and if I don't set limits I can gain weight just by eating too much fruit and veggies.

The problem I had with Weight Watchers (a pretty good program on which I lost 25 pounds and reached my goal weight) is that most fruits and veggies are not counted, and I can eat enough calories to gain weight while still remaining on plan, by eating too much of those.

As for "No dairy, sugar, or booze," I am skeptical of any diet that completely excludes any food. Sugar is not good for you, but a little won't hurt. I personally don't like alcohol, because it makes me feel a little dizzy and it muddles my brain, but a small amount won't hurt you. And I think that dairy has a real, beneficial place in a balanced diet. I don't eat meat or poultry, but that's an ethical choice, not a health-related choice.

Tofu is another food I can gain weight on. I love it. Sadly, most people don't know how to prepare it properly and are convinced they don't like it, because they've had it in an Asian restaurant where it's grossly undercooked and under-flavored. Mooshy and tasteless. Mine is firm (because I cook it thoroughly) and delicious, because it's seasoned.

I find the main reason I love tofu dishes like Tofu Tod, it's because it's deep fried tofu that I dip in sweet chili sauce. Deep frying and sweet chili sauce not really encouraged in the diet........
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on January 05, 2017, 10:58:17 AM
...
I find the main reason I love tofu dishes like Tofu Tod, it's because it's deep fried tofu that I dip in sweet chili sauce. Deep frying and sweet chili sauce not really encouraged in the diet........

I cook it in a skillet with onion and just a little bit of oil and a fair amount of water and a lot of seasonings, including soy sauce. As the water boils, the tofu cooks thoroughly. Once the water is gone, it is sautéed in the oil until golden brown. It is firm because it's been thoroughly cooked, and the seasonings give it the flavor. Often I'll add a previously-baked potato (chopped up) near the end of the cooking. Sometimes mushrooms at that point also.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 11, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
Day three of my little Dr. Furhman experiment.

I weighed 219 lbs at 6am on Monday and I weigh 216 at 6am on Wednesday.

I assume it's all water weight, since according to the diary I've been keeping in the "My Fitness Buddy" app, I have been eating fewer than 1000mg of sodium a day.

After 48 hours of only vegetables, fruit, beans and nuts, no added sugar, no added salt I find I'm not hungry.  Eating 1 lb of day of raw veg a day minimum makes NOT feeling full impossible.

I've had no sweet cravings. Fresh fruit is my preferred sweet anyway.  The co-worker who's cube is next to mine bought Five Guys a burger and fries for lunch yesterday and the smell was intoxicating.  I'm definitely craving salt and fat, but not really sugar.  However, the full feeling helps me ignore the cravings.  The long weekend may be a challenge.  (In the US, Martin Luther King Jr. Day is Monday, and it's a Federal Holiday).
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: Gerbig on January 11, 2017, 11:46:43 AM
From his book, and his podcast, what I can gather is he ate potatoes, plain potatoes with no spices or butter etc for two weeks, and that fundamentally changed his pallet and food-related desires to a point where he doesn't really crave calorie dense food anymore.

Sounds a bit like ad-hoc reasoning, or a one-solution-cures-all type thing. Kinda wooey, but if it works for him it works.

He describes often on his podcast how he loses tastes for certain foods, like one day he no longer wanted to ever have milkshakes again.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 11, 2017, 12:00:22 PM
From his book, and his podcast, what I can gather is he ate potatoes, plain potatoes with no spices or butter etc for two weeks, and that fundamentally changed his pallet and food-related desires to a point where he doesn't really crave calorie dense food anymore.

Sounds a bit like ad-hoc reasoning, or a one-solution-cures-all type thing. Kinda wooey, but if it works for him it works.

He describes often on his podcast how he loses tastes for certain foods, like one day he no longer wanted to ever have milkshakes again.

His diet is a combination of the book "Eat to Live" by Dr. Joel Furhman, MD and the advice of Ray Cronise, a former NASA employee who advocates the potato "hack" you speak of, long term fasting and all sorts of other nonsense. 

I'm following the 6 week diet that Furhman lays out in his book to see if I can lose 20 lbs.  I have a couple friends who have tried it, one who was a Penn podcast fan who has made a permanent switch and dropped about 70lbs in 6 months. 

He now weighs less at age 40 than he did when I first met him at age 19.   He has also been taken off his blood pressure medication by his primary care physician, who is stunned.  He reports some of those same losses of taste.  For example, he used to drink 3-4 nights a week and now reports that in the last 6 months he's had one vodka and cranberry juice cocktail a couple different times.  Both times they made him feel such a sugar rush and so out of sorts that he no longer enjoys them.

Cronise is a nutcase.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on January 18, 2017, 11:12:01 AM
Update:

Went from 219 last Monday morning to 213 on Saturday.

It's Wednesday and I'm still hovering around 212.8 - 213.4.

That first week certainly resulted in dramatic weight loss, but the last 4-5 days seems to have slowed to almost nothing.  I did "cheat" on Saturday, in that I had some vegetarian panang curry when my wife requested we order Thai take out for dinner.  It's got more salt and oil than the diet allows, but is otherwise fine.

Interesting.  I'm going to wait a few more days.   If nothing much else happens in the weight loss department, I'm going to consciously decouple myself from this diet and go back to my weekly exercise routine.

I think I'll stick with the breakfasts and the giant, low calorie but extremely filling salads for lunch.  Perhaps return to nice omnivore food for dinner with seasonings and oil.  In any case, simply by paying attention for a week or so I've learned where it's easy and tasty to cut 500-750 calories and a bunch of sugar and sodium out of my diet with minimal effort at breakfast and lunch time.  (at least on work days) That can't be a bad thing.

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on January 18, 2017, 06:26:33 PM
From his book, and his podcast, what I can gather is he ate potatoes, plain potatoes with no spices or butter etc for two weeks...

It's been several decades since I put butter on potatoes. I love a baked potato in its skin with black pepper. Sometimes I eat potatoes with beans or spicy tofu or curried veggies. But I still love them with just black pepper.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: superdave on January 18, 2017, 06:27:34 PM
I've been reading about diets for years, and they all have the same thing in common.

Replace foods that are calorie dense with foods that aren't, so you don't have to worry so much about portion control.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: estockly on January 18, 2017, 06:36:15 PM
I've been reading about diets for years, and they all have the same thing in common.

Replace foods that are calorie dense with foods that aren't, so you don't have to worry so much about portion control.

That's not the case.  A LCHF diet replaces carbs (4cal per gram) with fat (9 cal per gram). Fats are twice as dense, calorically, as carbs.

Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: superdave on January 18, 2017, 06:41:18 PM
I've been reading about diets for years, and they all have the same thing in common.

Replace foods that are calorie dense with foods that aren't, so you don't have to worry so much about portion control.

That's not the case.  A LCHF diet replaces carbs (4cal per gram) with fat (9 cal per gram). Fats are twice as dense, calorically, as carbs.

hmm, good point
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: lonely moa on January 18, 2017, 11:56:47 PM
I've been reading about diets for years, and they all have the same thing in common.

Replace foods that are calorie dense with foods that aren't, so you don't have to worry so much about portion control.

That's not the case.  A LCHF diet replaces carbs (4cal per gram) with fat (9 cal per gram). Fats are twice as dense, calorically, as carbs.

More satiating and don't spike your fat storage hormone, insulin.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: stonesean on February 02, 2017, 11:18:13 AM
For what it's worth:

Made some minor modifications to my plan.

I eat breakfast and lunch that stay in line with the Furhman/Penn plan.

Basically, oatmeal and raw fruit (blueberries) for breakfast.  (coffee and tea as well.  No sugar, no cream, sometimes artificial sweetener)

Lunch is a salad (today for example: baby spinach, carrot, red bell pepper, snap peas, and a 1/4 cup of raw cashews with dressed balsamic vinegar only).  Snacks will be fruits or veg, and I drink a 100 calorie dose of whey protein after I run or other such exercise. (which I do 3-4 times a week)  I find the whey protein kills my snack cravings post workout.  Previously I would come home after a workout and destroy a plate of cheese and crackers or some such thing.  I don't seem to have those cravings with the whey protein.

A "normal" dinner.  (Last night my wife and I had grilled steaks with sautéed green beans. She's not on the diet.)

My weight loss has slowed, but it has not stopped.  I am currently at 209 after weighing 219 on January 9th and 213 on the 18th.  I use my weekends as "cheat" days, having something like bacon and eggs at breakfast instead of oatmeal but still try to have a giant filling salad at lunch.  I find it's not hard to do and seems to prevent snacking.  It will be fun to see where I am in a couple more weeks.

Honestly I wonder how much of this is just my change in drinking habits.  I've gone from several alcoholic beverages a week, to a few a month and no more than 1 per day.  Last week I had zero drinks, the week before that I had a scotch on one day and a glass of port on another.  I'm betting more than anything else, that's what has had the most impact. 

I DO feel more energetic after a couple weeks of greatly increasing my intake of vegetables and fruit.  Not sure if that's real or my imagination.
Title: Re: Penn Jillette Weight Loss
Post by: daniel1948 on February 02, 2017, 11:54:35 AM
Sounds like you're doing well. Best of luck, and don't give up. You might hit a plateau at some point, which is normal. The important thing is to stick with it and don't let a plateau discourage you if you do encounter one.