Author Topic: Man Converts Lions to Christ-insanity  (Read 5890 times)

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Offline Dave The Drummer

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Man Converts Lions to Christ-insanity
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2007, 05:45:24 PM »
Right.
Been having a think about this.
But I want to get a couple of things out the way first.

Quote from: "skidoo"
No, of course not. That's a straw man.


Of course it's a straw man.
I put that in there to illustrate that the emotional arguments are irrelevant. I originally wrote something to that effect but toned it down because I thought it might be a bit too harsh. Looks like I toned it down so far that I missed the point.
A mistake I shan't repeat.

I don't have any issues and I know you weren't really suggesting that I have but it does raise an interesting point and it just goes to show me that I learn something new about myself every day.
I seem to have some rather precisely defined criteria for offering compassion.
Why do I have them ?
Good question. I'm working on it.

I also seem to have other similarly highly structured criteria for other emotional responses too. This is irrelevant to you reading this as you don't know me or my background. I'm thinking out loud so I can clarify things a bit better for myself. Feel free to ignore this paragraph.
Lots of reflection to do methinks.

Anyway all this is by the by.

This guy put himself in harm's way. He put himself into an absolutely avoidable situation.
He does not qualify for compassion by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't have compassion for those people who get killed running across railway lines by trains they saw coming either.
For the train driver and the people have to clear up the mess, the parents, the relatives etc... Yes. Lots of compassion.
For the red smear down the side of the locomotive ?
No.
Both are absolutely avoidable situations

And as for man eaters in the zoo...

Quote from: "Joe"
Any zookeeper will tell you that having a man-eater in the zoo is untenable.  The men and women that work with the animals in the zoo are safer because the animals they deal with are (for lack of a better word) mystified by their human keepers.  Once an animal learns that man is made of meat the entire game is over for us.


Obviously I'm not a zookeeper but I don't really see the problem with having a man eater in the zoo. They're in cages and kept away from everyone. It's as safe as the authorities want to make it.
So it eats people. Woo hoo. That the animal realises humans are tasty snacks I can't see makes any difference. They know we're something to eat already or they at least have the responses in place to give one a try and see what happens. That was clearly demonstrated in this situation and in numerous others in the past.

It's the job of humans to make sure they don't put themselves in a position where the lion has the chance to take a bite.
And I'm not just talking about people in city zoos either. If you live where there are lions etc... then expect to lose some of your people to them unless you take appropriate steps to prevent that.

If a human gets eaten/bitten the it's the human's fault 100% of the time.
Or are the zoo keepers naiive and complacent enough to think that the lions wouldn't like a bite of some tasty long pig if given the chance ?

Quote from: "Dave The Drummer"

Humans are not the top of the food chain in all situations.
Inside a tank we're the top of the food chain but in slacks and shirtsleeves 5 feet from a lion we're just an easy lunch.
Reaching out to embrace the random, reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

Offline Dave The Drummer

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Man Converts Lions to Christ-insanity
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2007, 05:55:05 PM »
Quote from: "stickman"

Dave, i think we have very different ideas about what compassion is.  

I don't think we have a different idea about what compassion is at all.
Quite the reverse in fact.
What we do seem to have is a difference in what prompts us to offer compassion.

Quote from: "stickman"
Compassion is making sure prison conditions are reasonable; people are in prison AS punishment, not FOR punishment.


This is off the subject but you pushed another one of my buttons  :lol:
These days prison is about as far from punishment as a week in Butlins Holiday Camp is.
There is no punishment element at the moment. Cable TV isn't punishment. 3 squares a day isn't punishment. etc... etc... ad nauseum.
I'm going to stop right here or I'll be at this all night and I'll probably be banned from the forums for coming across like some naziesque human rights destroyer.

Quote
In the end, showing compassion isn't something we do for other people.  It's something we do for ourselves.  Others benefit along the way.


I disagree with this but I don't have my argument sorted out so I'll get back to it when I've got my shit together.
I'm not sure it fits in with the drive for cooperation.

Anyway...
Time for a cup of tea methinks.
 8)
Reaching out to embrace the random, reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

Offline ryan welle

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Man Converts Lions to Christ-insanity
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2007, 06:49:45 PM »
I have a background in psychology so maybe I can shed some light on the whole mental illness issue.  There are four main criteria that someone must fit in to to be labeled as "mentaly ill".  First the person must exibit atypical behavior, second the behavior must be desterbing to others, third the behavior must be maladaptive, and last the behavior must be unjustified.  I think that there is no doubt that this guy is a prime canadate for mental illness.
o, our science is no illusion. But an illusion it would be to suppose that what science cannot give us we can get elcewhere.   Sigmund Freud

Offline stickman

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Man Converts Lions to Christ-insanity
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2007, 07:57:29 PM »
I recognise that these are value judgements.  There is no proveable right or wrong here, so my goal is not to convince you that I'm right, but to present my point of view in hopes it gives you something to think about.  In this type of situation, all one can do it try to understand the other persons view, and try to present ones own.

Quote from: "Dave The Drummer"


Quote from: "stickman"
Compassion is making sure prison conditions are reasonable; people are in prison AS punishment, not FOR punishment.


This is off the subject but you pushed another one of my buttons  :lol:
These days prison is about as far from punishment as a week in Butlins Holiday Camp is.
There is no punishment element at the moment. Cable TV isn't punishment. 3 squares a day isn't punishment. etc... etc... ad nauseum.


Exactly as it should be.  The punishment is deprivation of freedom.  Period.  The intent is not to lock someone up AND make them physically or mentally suffer for the duration of their sentence.  That's barbaric.  As a society, we've moved beyond that.  By and large, corrections workers understand this, though some in society do not.  Just listen to the judge:  he sentences people to time in prison.  Not time to be imprisoned and tormented.

I used to play with explosives.  When I was 14, I seriously injured myself.  It was stupid and avoidable, and entirely my own fault.  I have nobody to blame but myself, but I can't say I believe I deserved to have my hand blown apart.  I am thankful that when I arrived at the hospital, the doctors didn't pause to consider what I did and did not deserve before going to work on me.

Dave, i'm sure you can think of some time in your life when you did something stupid that could have resulted in disaster, but didn't.  Did you deserve the disaster you luckily avoided?  Or would you only have deserved it if the disaster had actually occured?

Conside the example you mentioned, a guy playing chicken with a train and getting hit.  A stupid thing to do, with predictable results.  However, if I were there, I would still try to give him comfort, and hold his hand as he died.  Imagine I then checked his wallet and found a number for his next of kin.  I phone it, and YOU answer the phone.  The idiot playing chicken with the train was your brother, who does stupid things when drunk.  Or you're cousin, who's always had a bit of a self destructive streak.  Does that change your feelings?  Are you glad someone was there to show your brother/cousin compassion in his last, pain filled moments?  Or do you growl "Well, the fucker had it coming!" and hang up the phone?

The guy jumping into the lion pit is an even more clear cut example.  Whatever the cause, I think one is justified in concluding that this guy has a disconnect with reality going on.  Is he high?  Is he delusional? Is he suicidal?  No matter; get him the hell out of the pit!  If not for his own sake, do it for his friends and family!  

(As an aside, I agree that had he been eaten, the lion would not deserve to die for eating him.  But I also agree that the lion certainly would be put down.  Not for logical reasons, buy for emotional ones.  Such is the world.)  

Finally, there's a thought experiment I like to perform when contemplating what's right and what's wrong.  Consider two societies; one where everyone behaved a certain way, and one where nobody behaved in that way.  Which society would you rather live in?  Of course, it's pretty easy to reduce this to absurdity; it's not universally applicable (example: if everyone was a doctor, society would collapse.  This is not evidence it is wrong to become a doctor).  Nevertherless, the excersise can be helpful.
  Me, I'd rather live in a compassionate society than a non-compassionate one.  

  Compassion costs us little, rewards us greatly, and makes the world a better place to live.  For me, it's just that simple.
The best debates are the ones in which I'm proven wrong.  Then I've learned something.

 

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