Author Topic: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.  (Read 43331 times)

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Offline Evil Eye

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2009, 04:47:22 PM »
Is there such a thing as a simplist?

I view Tolkien as a writer of fantasy books that are fun (if not difficult) to read.
"We'll get that information to you later" - Richard Feynman to Mr. Rodgers.

Online Hanes

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2009, 05:47:56 PM »
How do you and the other .....mmmmm...... guys.... view Tolkien? As deluded? Can you show any evidence to suggest that he thought that anything that he wrote was to be taken as a basis for a religion - or treated in any way as real?

From what I got from the the forum Luthien linked to (the links no longer go to that website, oddly enough), they view the works as a mythology from which one can draw inspiration, sort of the way Febo views the Gospels (sorry if I misrepresent you Febo!), but that it isn't "true" in a real sense.  Then they jump off the deep end and start talking about how it's "true" in an "imaginal" sense, and that it can help us find the "hidden truths" or something like that.  I'd give you quotes if I could still get to the website.  It was pretty off the deep end.

But I agree with the original sentiment, that the works are a myth that inspiration can be drawn from.  There's certanly some cool drawings and paintings, not to mention some songs by Led Zepplin, that drew from Tolkien's work.

I view them like I view The Illiad, except less grounded in reality (IE, Greece actually existed, no such luck for Arnor).  It's literature--a good story.

Offline Elrond

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2009, 06:46:38 PM »
I would say that is proof that a mind can influence electrical currents in a machine, wouldn't it?

When that machine is specifically designed to measure and react to what's going on in your brain, yes. Try it without the electrodes on your head and tell us how it went. :P

That would be a facinating experiment... But since a few of my friends and I disrupted power 800 miles away last winter, it could be possible... splitting thunderstorms in half is also fun... every day for 2 weeks and only one got through... have the weather channels satelite images of it too.... I guess it was just coincidence though, even the 5 storms in 1 day...
Remember Arwen in Fellowship of the Ring when the Ringwraiths almost had her and she sang the song? The wraiths were washed down the river... NICE!
Yeah, it works, but only if you believe with no doubt....

Hanes,
The Led Zeppelin songs referring to LOTR are awesome.

By the way, I never said Tolkiens writings were 100% "real" as a fundamentalist would... For instance there were no 50' tall Mamukil (Oeliphants)... but there were war Elephants in the ancient mideast and India... so some things are exagerated. Note that the warriors riding the Mamukil are Arab in appearance and play what sounds like a Muslim dirge in the ROTK movie. Scarry actually. Freaking terrorasses on 50' tall Elephantine beasts... maybe Tolkien was a prophet as well as a historian and linguist. Or Peter Jackson just threw that in there after 9/11 to make a point. I don't know on that one.... but it's still spooky...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 06:55:53 PM by Elrond »

Offline Sordid

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2009, 06:57:01 PM »
That would be a facinating experiment... But since a few of my friends and I disrupted power 800 miles away last winter, it could be possible... splitting thunderstorms in half is also fun... every day for 2 weeks and only one got through... have the weather channels satelite images of it too.... I guess it was just coincidence though, even the 5 storms in 1 day...
Remember Arwen in Fellowship of the Ring when the Ringwraiths almost had her and she sang the song? The wraiths were washed down the river... NICE!
Yeah, it works, but only if you believe with no doubt....

Oh, oh, could you conjure up a storm over here? It's horribly hot and I just really like rain and stuff... please, please, pretty please with sugar on top?

Online Hanes

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2009, 07:00:52 PM »
you know you could earn a million dollars with your powers

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Offline Llefyn

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2009, 07:18:03 PM »
*whew*....had to poke my head in.  Finished reading this thread, and my head is spinning.  Just wanted to say that though folks of elven mind share some similarities we also have as many differences in outlook, experiences,  philosophies, and origins. 

Though I'm new, I'm willing to answer questions about myself.  And I come here to show myself to folks because I am one of those wierd elven people.  Unfortunately the truth might disappoint, as living an elven path isn't all sunshine and lollipops..........  No alien visitations for me, no mind-altering drugs, no famous past lives (too many Cleopatras and Joan of Arcs anyways!)....just another human on the big wheel of life working her union job, paying her taxes and trying to make a comfortable living. 

Btw, my other half is not like me.....he's much the "seeing-is-beleiving" sort of guy and doesn't believe in reincarnation, or elves, or other wierd shit like that.  And I've had to field a lot of questions about why on earth I'd believe in reincarnation, or psychic abilities, and just about anything else that he can't see, touch, hear or feel himself.  One may wonder why we are together?  Our differences complement eachother, and I find his perspective keeps me grounded in what others, who are not sensitive like me, would perceive and think of alternative trains of thought.  It forces me to constantly *think* about everything from my spirituality to daily mundane things.....

So I'll put  myself on the forum to answer questions about *me.*  If you want a detailed discussion on elven philosophy or Tolkien, I can't really give it to you.  I'm a simplist, and my answers may disappoint and even bore in light of what's been going on around here.  But then sometimes the plain truth *is* boring. :-)  Fire away, if you want to know about me, I get it all the time anyways :-)

Offline Elrond

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2009, 07:23:19 PM »
*sighs* It doesn't work that way.... mainly to protect ones I love, or places ones I love live. Same for my friends who seem to manifest things... as for money: irrelevant... that is charlatanism, no different than psychics who abuse thier powers to get rich... Nope, won't even try to go there..
Sordid, you don't need a storm, you need a nice cool rain and a cold front... but we have the cold front now.... for mid July it being 52 degrees in the morning and 75 in mid day and having to light small fires in the wood stove is strange... makes me wonder if global warming is a big joke!

PS Hi Llefyn,
You posted while I was writing. Long time no speak... so how did you happen aboard this thread? I know I had nothing to do with it... I don't think we've written in months... Glad to see you again!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:28:05 PM by Elrond »

Online Hanes

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2009, 07:25:15 PM »
(snip)

Do you have any evidence or reasoned arguments that such things as elves exist, or is it just something you "feel" to be true?

Why do you believe in reincarnation, or psychic abilities, and just about anything else that cannot be corroborated objectively (or do you feel such objective evidence exists)?

Online Hanes

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2009, 07:29:23 PM »
*sighs* It doesn't work that way.... mainly to protect ones I love, or places ones I love live. Same for my friends who seem to manifest things... as for money: irrelevant... that is charlatanism, no different than psychics who abuse thier powers to get rich... Nope, won't even try to go there..

[...] makes me wonder if global warming is a big joke!

Do you have any idea how much good you could do in the world with 1m?  Donate it to a charaty, set up a third-world town with internet or fresh water.  Help set up abused women with places to live apart from their abusive husbands.  Right now there's a million dollars sitting in a bank, and you have the ability (according to you) to liberate it.  Not doing this is selfish and lazy.

And as for global warming, isolated temperature fluctuations do not prove or disprove a solid climatological theory.

Offline Sordid

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2009, 07:33:20 PM »
Sordid, you don't need a storm, you need a nice cool rain and a cold front... but we have the cold front now.... for mid July it being 52 degrees in the morning and 75 in mid day and having to light small fires in the wood stove is strange... makes me wonder if global warming is a big joke!

You don't tell me what I do or don't need, you pointy eared floozy! >:( Gimme my storm!

Offline MisterMarc

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2009, 07:40:04 PM »
I'm still waiting for the evidence for this alien visitation in 1999. We've wandered off to twenty different woo topics, from psychics to agw-denial, to evolution-denial and more....but still no evidence for that one basic claim. :(

Offline Neutral Milk

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2009, 07:56:54 PM »
to evolution-denial and more....

I'm always terribly fascinated when non-fundamentalist Christians deny evolution. I hope we eventually get to this. Raelians are fascinating too.

Are you familiar with the teachings of Rael, Elrond? I think you'd find a kindred spirit.

Offline Llefyn

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2009, 08:11:52 PM »

"Do you have any evidence or reasoned arguments that such things as elves exist, or is it just something you "feel" to be true?"

There are folks who are doing research in elven DNA.  Perhaps they will turn something up concrete.  Or not.  Either way I'm interested in what the findings are.  On a personal level, I always felt different since I was a young child, but never found what it was that I resonated with until I was drug nearly against my will to the first of the three movies.  Seriously, until that first movie I avoided "gamers" and gaming-like stuff like the nerdy-plague, and dismissed Tolkien's books (which I did not read until after I saw the first movie) as garbage that was the favored domain of socially-challenged board-gaming geeks who forgot to brush their teeth or even use the washroom during their weekend-long Dungeons and Dragons sessions on weekends in their parent's basements.........I thought they were completely unglued and ungrounded, and didn't want to associate with *that crowd*.

When I saw what was presented on screen, I was stunned, as it resonated with me on a deep inner level, and I strongly felt that though what was portrayed on-screen was a director's interpretation of the books, that what I was seeing was the closest we had been shown to pre-recorded history that has been lost/forgotten by the passage of time.  Of course, what is written isn't likely to have happened *exactly* like that, afterall it was a darned long time ago.  But finally, after all my years, I found something that made sense on an inner level, and I started reading the books to find out more.  In reading the books I found a reference to the crossing of the Helcaraxe. This was a "light bulb moment" for me, as I had been having dreams for years about crossing an ice covered region, and it made no sense at all to me.  I never saw anything like it in a movie, or ead anything like it in another book. Yet when I read the passage (refer to the Silmarillion) I was nearly sick, as the dream I had came back to me in full clarity as I read it. 

So, in a nutshell, it is a matter of *faith*.  It feels right inside.  I am relaxed and content with identifying with elven aspects.  I have  had  images of a few places from back then, but *no* I was not anyone famous or noted in tolkiens writings......I was just "Joe Ordinary" elf, nothing special.  And even now, I know that I am human, my body is human, my mind is human, but I *do* resonate on a spiritual level with that timeframe.  So in keeping with my beleif of reincarnation, I accept the idea that I was alive in the timeframe referred to by tolkien in his writings. 

I explained this to a Christian once.  It was interesting, and though she didn't "get it" she was able understand that I was subjecting myself to my inner resonation as much as she subjected herself to the resonation with Christ energy.  It helped, too, that she knew me for years before we had that conversation :-)

"Why do you believe in reincarnation, or psychic abilities, and just about anything else that cannot be corroborated objectively (or do you feel such objective evidence exists)?"

Short answer: personal experience.  Long answer below:

People are studying the existence of psychic abilities, and findings seem to be negligible, 50% average accuracy at best.  But then results like that are attaind with the usual methods of card guessing and the like.  I would  epic fail at any card-guessing game, because that's not where my strengths are.  My prominent strength is in "empathy", which is feeling how someone else feels....literally.  It can drive you nuts.  My mother was like that too, as it has been for the women of my family.  It's not fun, it's not glorious, and I don't make any money or favors off of it.  It's just a part of me that I have lived with since I can remember.  I also shared my mothers' aptitude for clarivoyance (knowledge at a distance), most strongly connected with her.  For example, I knew within an hour of her passing away that she was about to go, and I cancelled my ride to the hospital, and let her go in private.  There was no way to objectively know that she was going to die when she did, as she had been sick with cancer for many months, and she had already exceeded her 6-month estimation from the doctors for dying.....stubborn to the end :-)  When the thought came to me that it was time, I knew it to be fact as strongly as I knew I was brushing my hair at the moment.  Subtle, but definite.  No big show, no dancing lights, no angels singing, etc.  Just knowing.

And it's like that with other people and things as well.  But I'm not a machine, I don't turn it on or off, and sometimes it's faint and if distracted I nearly miss it.  So I'd be useless in a "psychic test".  Sometimes I get stuff I don't ask for, and occasionally wish I never got at all.

Reincarnation:  feelings, images, and "knowing" of places and things that i have experienced over the years.  Never anyone famous or amazing.  Seems that I spent a lot of my time just trying to survive.  Feeling a little ripped off and disappointed with myself ;-)

My sensitivities are not something I advertise on a daily basis, as there are the naysayers who would thing I'm suffering form some kind of mental condition and need medication or psychotherapy.  Ot they think I'm touched by Satan and need to accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior.  Or mabey they'd think I was smoking some whacky-tabaccy.  Well no, other than the birth control pill I am not on any meds, nor have I ever been on any meds with the exception of Advil (which I use when my arthritis kicks up). So my "knowing" is whatever it is, unenhanced by drugs of any kind.  So to sum it up, I have had lifelong personal experiences with some forms of psychic sensitivities.  However it'll take something fantastical and unforseen as things are today before we see anything walking around like the X-Men......so I won't be tonight's entertainment shooting lazers out my eyes and flames out my a**........(amusing imagery....it's been a long day).

Llefyn

Offline teethering

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2009, 08:54:06 PM »
Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick....

Offline Llefyn

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Re: Elves?? I'm stunned this is a real movement.
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2009, 08:56:29 PM »
Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick....

That imagery isn't doing it for me.  Unless there's lazers and flames, it's weak ;-)  LOL