Author Topic: I'm Done with new music  (Read 7253 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Plasmodium vivax

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1781
  • Actually, I'm Rick Santorum.
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2009, 11:01:38 PM »
I'm surprised no one has yet used autotune to un-tune popular music.  It would be an interesting experiment.

You'd need the multitrack recordings to isolate the vocals. They're generally not easy to get a hold of.

Yes... I suppose that would make it difficult...  :(
Quote
Also, I shot magic into their chromosomes until they turned inside-out.  Evolution is my bitch.

Offline Evil Eye

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13168
  • THINK!
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 03:49:55 PM »
I thought you guys were talking about electronic tuners vs. tuning forks.

I still use a tuning fork, and I bet I can tune a guitar more precisely with it than most people with an electronic tuner.

That's because electronic tuners are in equal temperament and when a tuning fork is used, one is forced into some form of Pythagorean Tuning or Just Intonation.  The tuning derived from a tuning fork gives a purer and more 'in tune' sound to most things, but god help you if you decide you want to do funky Romantic Era key modulations.

You will get Pythagorean Tuning or something only if you use (non-octave, i.e., 7th fret) harmonics to tune the guitar. Otherwise the guitar frets are (usually) laid out for equal temperament tuning.


This. 

One uses a tuning fork to tune one string ~ that alone has nothing to do with Phythagorean tuning.  For some reason, the myth that using harmonics leads to more accurate tuning continues.....

That's odd.

I have always used harmonics to tune each string after tuning the first one.

Am I doin' it 'rong?
"We'll get that information to you later" - Richard Feynman to Mr. Rodgers.

Offline Green Ideas

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9248
  • ZZZ!!!
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 04:58:59 PM »
I thought you guys were talking about electronic tuners vs. tuning forks.

I still use a tuning fork, and I bet I can tune a guitar more precisely with it than most people with an electronic tuner.

That's because electronic tuners are in equal temperament and when a tuning fork is used, one is forced into some form of Pythagorean Tuning or Just Intonation.  The tuning derived from a tuning fork gives a purer and more 'in tune' sound to most things, but god help you if you decide you want to do funky Romantic Era key modulations.

You will get Pythagorean Tuning or something only if you use (non-octave, i.e., 7th fret) harmonics to tune the guitar. Otherwise the guitar frets are (usually) laid out for equal temperament tuning.


This. 

One uses a tuning fork to tune one string ~ that alone has nothing to do with Phythagorean tuning.  For some reason, the myth that using harmonics leads to more accurate tuning continues.....

That's odd.

I have always used harmonics to tune each string after tuning the first one.

Am I doin' it 'rong?

I thought so too. And I use harmonics to tune my musical instruments too. Sorry AxeGrrl, but I don't think that's a myth.

On the other hand, if you have some evidence/argument to back your point, I'd love to hear about it.

Offline Lukas

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 06:29:53 PM »
I thought so too. And I use harmonics to tune my musical instruments too. Sorry AxeGrrl, but I don't think that's a myth.

On the other hand, if you have some evidence/argument to back your point, I'd love to hear about it.

If you tune two adjacent string with the 5th/7th fret harmonics, their frequencies have a ratio of 2:3. If you stack 12 of them (just a thought experiment, think of a guitar with 12 strings all tuned in 4ths), you should get 7 octaves, i.e., a ratio of 1:2^7 = 1:128. However, you'll get (2:3)^12 = 1:129.7, so it'll be slightly off. The tempered 4th has  a frequency ratio of 1:2^(7/12) = 1:1.4983, slightly different from the harmonic tuning, and that's what you get when you tune without harmonics.

Offline Lukas

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2009, 06:45:28 PM »
I thought so too. And I use harmonics to tune my musical instruments too. Sorry AxeGrrl, but I don't think that's a myth.

On the other hand, if you have some evidence/argument to back your point, I'd love to hear about it.

If you tune two adjacent string with the 5th/7th fret harmonics, their frequencies have a ratio of 2:3. If you stack 12 of them (just a thought experiment, think of a guitar with 12 strings all tuned in 4ths), you should get 7 octaves, i.e., a ratio of 1:2^7 = 1:128. However, you'll get (2:3)^12 = 1:129.7, so it'll be slightly off. The tempered 4th has  a frequency ratio of 1:2^(7/12) = 1:1.4983, slightly different from the harmonic tuning, and that's what you get when you tune without harmonics.

Bah, this is obviously wrong, but the general idea is right. For some reason I thought of tuning in 5ths instead of 4ths. OK, here is the correct version: If you tune with 5th/7h fret harmonics, the frequency ratio is 3:4, and if you stack 12 of them you should get 5 octaves, but (3:4)^12 = 1:31.57, and 2^5=1:32. The tempered 4th has a frequency ratio of  1:2^(5/12) = 1:1.3348 = 3:4.0045, slightly different from the harmonic tuning, by about 0.1% (which is usually good enough for casual guitarists).

Offline Green Ideas

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9248
  • ZZZ!!!
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2009, 12:56:15 PM »
Thanks, Lukas. I'm not sure I understood you, not very good with math.

Anyway, I only use harmonics as a 1st approximation. I always check the final result and make some adjustments.

Also, it's my impression that it is impossible to have a perfectly tuned instrument, because when you tune one string, the change in the tension of that string also causes a slight change in the tension of all other strings. And when you start playing, the temperature of the strings (and of the whole instrument) tends to rise, which complicates (thru thermal expansion) things further...

Offline Zabulon

  • Fails the Turing-test
  • Seasoned Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 923
  • Foxhole atheist
    • My band
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2009, 04:47:36 PM »
Music is not about perfection.
In Cod we Trust

Offline Kessdawg

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1934
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2009, 05:13:29 PM »
This explains what I was hearing that one time I heard On a Boat in the club.  I knew it wasn't real but I didn't know what they were doing.
bellyfeel - Full emotional understanding. Blind, enthusiastic acceptance of a concept

Visit my Fiance's Etsy store.  Now on sale Gingerbread house kits!
http://www.etsy.com/listing/87699428/gingerbread-house-kit

Offline Green Ideas

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9248
  • ZZZ!!!
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2009, 06:44:13 PM »
Music is not about perfection.

Reminded me of this:

"When music affects us to tears, seemingly causeless, we weep not, as Gravina supposes, from 'excess of pleasure'; but through an excess of an impatient, petulant sorrow that we, as mere mortals, are yet in no condition to banquet upon those supernal ecstasies of which music affords us merely a suggestive and indefinite glimpse."

        Edgar Alan Poe

Offline AxeGrrl

  • in my cell, making a shiv out of a toothbrush and saran wrap
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3947
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2009, 06:09:17 PM »
I thought you guys were talking about electronic tuners vs. tuning forks.

I still use a tuning fork, and I bet I can tune a guitar more precisely with it than most people with an electronic tuner.

That's because electronic tuners are in equal temperament and when a tuning fork is used, one is forced into some form of Pythagorean Tuning or Just Intonation.  The tuning derived from a tuning fork gives a purer and more 'in tune' sound to most things, but god help you if you decide you want to do funky Romantic Era key modulations.

You will get Pythagorean Tuning or something only if you use (non-octave, i.e., 7th fret) harmonics to tune the guitar. Otherwise the guitar frets are (usually) laid out for equal temperament tuning.


This. 

One uses a tuning fork to tune one string ~ that alone has nothing to do with Phythagorean tuning.  For some reason, the myth that using harmonics leads to more accurate tuning continues.....

That's odd.

I have always used harmonics to tune each string after tuning the first one.

Am I doin' it 'rong?

I thought so too. And I use harmonics to tune my musical instruments too. Sorry AxeGrrl, but I don't think that's a myth.

On the other hand, if you have some evidence/argument to back your point, I'd love to hear about it.


A guitar tuned using harmonics isn't necessarily tuned any more 'accurately' than using the simpler 5th fret/next string, 5th fret/next string method.....

Give me a guitar and I'll prove it to you :)

The bottom line is that both methods rely on the human ear to make required adjustments.  Harmonics allow one to hear the 'beats' more clearly, indeed ~ but at the end of the day, whether I've tuned my guitar using harmonics or the fretted method, I'm never 'finished' until I do plenty of checks after tuning.......like playing a bunch of chords, checking octaves various places, etc. 

it's too bad we can't do a side-by-side check using both methods so I could prove what I'm saying is true :)


Now......who's been telling people that if you using a tuning fork you have to use harmonics to tune the rest of the instrument?? 


« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 06:24:29 PM by AxeGrrl »
"Wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

Offline AxeGrrl

  • in my cell, making a shiv out of a toothbrush and saran wrap
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3947
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2009, 06:13:04 PM »
Also, it's my impression that it is impossible to have a perfectly tuned instrument...


This.  Especially when we're talking about a tempered instrument like the guitar.

When a guitar is tuned as accurately as possible, the 5ths (for ex) aren't as 'perfect' as they would be if it weren't tempered (like, say, a violin).

Tempered instruments are all about compromise when it comes to 'perfect' tuning  :)

Luckily, the difference is so minimal, the only people who might hear it was being 'off' might be people who were born with perfect pitch.

"Wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

Offline Jack

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2031
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2009, 01:28:25 PM »
Steve Vai uses True Temperament now I think.

Weird but the demos I've heard sounded good.

Offline Evil Eye

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13168
  • THINK!
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2009, 03:30:53 PM »
Steve Vai uses True Temperament now I think.

Weird but the demos I've heard sounded good.

That is fracking cracker cool!
"We'll get that information to you later" - Richard Feynman to Mr. Rodgers.

Offline cerveauxfrits

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8980
  • chickened out
Re: I'm Done with new music
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2009, 03:59:05 PM »
This is kind of the opposite, of auto-tune, I guess. . .

Kid Koala - Drunk Trumpet

 

personate-rain
personate-rain