Author Topic: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down  (Read 23475 times)

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Offline seaotter

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #225 on: March 22, 2012, 11:09:07 AM »
Wow, double down. I like the agression. Countdown to the quotes condoning slavery in context....3....2.....1......

Note you ignored my questions strawmaned, ad homed and double downed. 

Why is this just coming out now?
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Offline NekoNinja

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #226 on: March 22, 2012, 11:11:31 AM »

Yep, mental breakdown. Let's call it in.

I don't agree with no-en, but armchair diagnoses such as this piss me off.  If you are a psychologist or a psychiatrist, your ethics regarding confidentiality need checking.  If you aren't a mental health professional, what are you doing making this assessment? 
Comments like this aren't likely to be helpful in either case.  You are making a strawman based on the poster's emotional state, which is irrelevant.  They could be frothing at the mouth or calmly tapping away while enjoying some soothing music, but neither situation has any bearing on whether or not their arguments are correct.  Deal with their arguments, don't try to use their apparent emotions against them.  If you have a strong case against them, you don't need it.  If you have no case against them, you are just being a jerk.

I don't like to defend personal attacks, and I do in fact acknowledge that it was unnecessary. But this is clearly not an armchair diagnosis. For one thing, "mental breakdown" isn't even a medical term. Nor do I think this is supposed to be an argument against the individual. It's not as if he is saying "Well you are clearly having a mental breakdown, thus your arguments are invalid." It seems the arguments have been thoroughly attacked on their merits. Its clear that this was meant to be just a joke, albeit one at the individual's expense. Most jokes however tend to be at someone's or something's expense, not that this means I approve. I still think it was unnecessary, but you are the one here making a strawman.

Offline Vincegamer

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #227 on: March 22, 2012, 11:36:55 AM »
Nowhere does the Bible condone slavery at all. In fact it specifically condemns slavery. . . . What they called slavery we would today call an apprenticeship.
I know I said I was going to keep out, but HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is the most profoundly denialist ignorant thing I've heard and I never expected such on these forums. Then to follow by asserting the problem is we read the Bible in modern English but supporting with even more modern English translations (ones scholars particularly hate) just broke my irony meter.
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Offline Chew

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #228 on: March 22, 2012, 11:40:19 AM »
Nowhere does the Bible condone slavery at all. In fact it specifically condemns slavery.
Show us one passage that condemns slavery. The one you cited condemns kidnapping a man (in the KJV) to sell into slavery. It does not condemn slavery. It says do not kidnap to sell into slavery; it does not say don't own or sell slaves.


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One would have to be profoundly ignorant to believe that the Bible was written in contemporary English and that the words we use today carried the same meaning then as they do now. What they called slavery we would today call an apprenticeship.
You are grasping at straws.

Exodus 21 NASB
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7 “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8 If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10 If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11 If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

An "apprentice" cannot be bought or sold.
A woman's only "career" in those days was as a wife or slave.
Women did not take apprenticeships.
Rape and forced marriage has never been in the job description of an apprentice.
What part about "she is to go free" confuses you about the rights of an "apprentice"?


Exodus 21 NASB
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4 If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
"The woman and her children shall belong to her master"!!! Only the supremely delusional can interpret that as an apprenticeship.
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Offline NekoNinja

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #229 on: March 22, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

FALSE. Are you really so ignorant that you think the Bible was written in modern English?

I don't think anyone has said this or even implied it. Your strawman does not impress.

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Nowhere does the Bible condone slavery at all. In fact it specifically condemns slavery. One would have to be profoundly ignorant to believe that the Bible was written in contemporary English and that the words we use today carried the same meaning then as they do now. What they called slavery we would today call an apprenticeship. If you wanted to learn a trade you would willingly contract yourself with someone who was a master in the trade to teach you and in return for your dedication and servitude you would get free room and board (typically for seven years) and be taught how to use the tools of your chosen trade. Today we call them "graduate students".

I would have to very much disagree. You might be able to try and squeeze your little interpretation in with passages regarding fellow Hebrew slaves, such as -

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
 
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."

However it most certainly can't be stated for passages like -

 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.'"

or -

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

Your interpretation here doesn't correlate with the culture at the time, and you can try and reinterpret your religious texts all you want. During the time period they indeed had and condoned slavery. In terms of fellow Hebrew servitude, they were still considered property. Often Hebrews were owned due to issues with debt. However, this doesn't change the fact that they still owned them. I'm not sure what your definition of slavery is, but most definitions have to do with the owning of another human being. 

Those who weren't Hebrew were undeniably considered property. It's simply impossible to interpret it any other way, or at least to do so and still be intellectually honest. Often these slaves would even be passed down to the owner's children. And of course the slaves' children would become slaves. If the Bible doesn't condone slavery, then there is no such thing as slavery.

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“Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
(Exodus 21:16)

That is what we mean by "slavery" today and it is condemned by the Bible. "Slaves obey your master" should be more accurately translated as "Servants, obey your employer". What WE call slavery, the forced imprisonment of people based on race or class did exist but it was outlawed by the Bible.

Wrong. Kidnapping isn't the same as slavery. For one thing, this applies to fellow Hebrews, not the captured members of other surrounding nations who were clearly sold as slaves. And Hebrew slaves were often bought due to their debt, or potentially their parent's debt. This is about kidnapping fellow Hebrews. It can be compared to a Caucasian woman being kidnapped during the 1800s in the US, which I don't doubt was against the law. It doesn't change the fact that slavery still happened in the US.

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Modern translations such as:

American Standard version
English Revised version
American King James version
World English Bible

All use the word "servants":

"Servants, obey in all things them that are your masters according to the flesh"

Thats because there wasn't considered much of a difference between the two. A slave is someone who serves you. The difference is just that you own them as property rather than they being employed. Your various Biblical interpretations do not impress me.

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So what the American Atheists had to do was CHERRY PICK a translation that confirmed their anti religious prejudice. That level of intellectual dishonesty disqualifies them, and those who support them, as being unbiased modern educated intellectuals engaged in the dispassionate pursuit of the truth and exposes them, AND YOU, as being no better than a trailer park creationist who cherry picks scientists for quotes that support his preconceived anti evolution bias.

The American Atheists deliberately chose a translation that used "slavery" instead of "servant" and then truncated the quotation in order to give the false impression that the intent of passage was to condone the forced imprisonment of people according to race.

Which makes them, and those here supporting them, anti religious bigots.

As I have shown above, this is nonsense.

Offline no-en

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #230 on: March 22, 2012, 12:03:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 01:29:51 AM by no-en »

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #231 on: March 22, 2012, 12:10:26 PM »
HOW DARE YOU. HOW DARE YOU. HOW. DARE. YOU.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline gs

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #232 on: March 22, 2012, 12:11:16 PM »

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #233 on: March 22, 2012, 12:12:21 PM »
Anyway, still waiting for all those Bible passages which condemn slavery. HOW DARE YOU
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Offline NekoNinja

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #234 on: March 22, 2012, 12:21:42 PM »
no-en, notice how nobody defends themselves against your continued insults? Why do you not practice what you preach? Why have you ignored my questions for the past few pages? Is your silence to be interpreted as conceding my points? Can you respond without insults?

My silence should be interpreted as me having a life.

"Can you respond without insults?"

Why should I? Those defending hate speech have earned my contempt. Talking to you all is like talking to a Ron Paul supported or a global warming denialist. Or............. to someone on the far Left. I guess it should be expected, atheism really is an anti religious ideology political after all. What really ticks me off though is your preening condescension and smug airs of intellectual superiority when in fact your beliefs are not just bad, they're willfully ignorant and sophomoric.

A young black man was gunned down recently for the crime of being black and holding a bag of skittles. He was murdered in cold blood and his killer set free due to the institutional racism rampant in Florida. And you people have the FUCKING GALL to put up a sign like that.

HOW DARE YOU. How dare you stoke the flames of racism and bigotry. How dare you throw the brutal history of slavery in the face of every single persona of color. How dare you USE THEIR SUFFERING so you can get your jollies pissing on others. Because that is all you're doing. You're just a beast of the field marking it's territory. Just another Swiftian Yahoo siting in a tree shitting on those you consider beneath you.

I'm a skeptic and agnostic. I love the SGU podcast. I love Brian Dunning's Skeptoid podcast. I agree with almost everything they say in every episode. But I can't stomach the crap you all here say in defense of this bigoted hate speech. It violates everything I believe in.

I should be angry. My anger is justified by your lies in support of offensive speech. I should allow you to see the full extent of my anger in order that maybe, just maybe, you'll get a clue.

You lied. "Slaves obey your masters" is NOT the correct translation. You lied because you can't see past your own prejudiced views. You lied because you want it to be true and you were willing to pervert history to achieve your political ends.

What if you're wrong? What if the translation you, the atheist community through the American Atheist org, chose to use is NOT the best interpretation and that the Bible really is not clear cut in support of the institution of slavery? What then? Well then you made a pretty damn big mistake didn't you. Not only did you offend just about every person of color in the United States you also destroyed your reputation, your brand, and made it that much harder to convince new people that your, our, cause is just. Thanks a lot assholes.

Way to go.

Stating facts is not bigotry or racism, and it's something that needs to be heard regardless of who may or may not be offended. If people are offended by reality and truth, then that is a personal issue. 

Offline Lukas

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #235 on: March 22, 2012, 12:37:54 PM »
no-en, instead of throwing a fit around here, maybe it helps to read what some Christian scholars write about slavery in the bible, e.g., this short overview by Greg Carey: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-carey/slavery-and-the-bible_b_880756.html
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Don't let anybody tell you that biblical slavery was somehow less brutal than slavery in the United States. Without exception, biblical societies were slaveholding societies. The Bible engages remarkably diverse cultures -- Ethiopian, Egyptian, Canaanite, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman -- but in every one of them some people owned the rights to others. Slaveowners possessed not only the slaves' labor but also their sexual and reproductive capacities. When the Bible refers to female slaves who do not "please" their masters, we're talking about the sexual use of slaves. Likewise when the Bible spells out the conditions for marrying a slave (see Exodus 21:7-11).

The occupations and experiences of slaves varied greatly. Many performed manual labor in horrid conditions, perhaps living only months after beginning their work. Some highly valued slaves attained wealth and status, a possibility reflected in Genesis' account of Joseph. Perhaps the story of the centurion who highly valued his slave connotes an erotic relationship, likely one-sided (Luke 7:1-10). In all cases the owners' right to use a slave as the owner sees fit, including the right to punish slaves severely, remain unquestioned.

How did people become slaves? Slavery did not accompany a particular racial status, as it eventually did in the United States, but the Hebrew Bible stipulates preferred treatment for Israelite slaves (see Exodus 21:1-11; 25:39-55; Deuteronomy 15:12-18). Crushing debt forced many into slavery, with some people selling themselves and others selling their children. Military conquest contributed greatly to the slave market as well.

The Bible does not attempt to hide the presence of slaves. Beware modern translations that use "servant" to cover up slave language. Slaves were ubiquitous in the ancient world.

Your attempt to whitewash history by pretending that "servant" is the correct translation, and that they were in reality some kind of apprentices is quite appalling. Yes, it was a different time, and slavery was normal back then, and modern Christians who don't take the Bible as literal truth certainly recognize it as a historical document of different times, but it is a fact that at least the Old Testament did condone slavery. I have seen intelligent defenders of Christianity, but the first thing they admit is that the Bible is a flawed document written by humans who lived a few thousand years back in pre-modern times.

And I agree that the billboard was ill-advised and probably intentionally offensive, a bad move PR-wise, but certainly not racist.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Offline no-en

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #237 on: March 22, 2012, 12:47:02 PM »
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 01:30:05 AM by no-en »

Offline Beη

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #238 on: March 22, 2012, 12:54:07 PM »
(click to show/hide)

What the ...uh ...I don't even... um... *slowly backs away*

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #239 on: March 22, 2012, 01:02:05 PM »
So... still waiting for those Bible passages where it specifically condemns slavery.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

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