Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 145058 times)

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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1845 on: August 22, 2019, 02:03:30 PM »
know your reasons, and I think they’re wrong.
If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

I’m asking the question, because the discussion of the answer is interesting.

You think the reasons for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the dietary guidelines.

I think the reason for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the predators in the food environment.  The fast food restaurant chains heavily advertising cheap readily available apparently tasty calorie rich food.  The advertisers making it socially acceptable to eat anywhere, any when.  In America, around 1/5 of meals are consumed in cars.  The food manufacturers advertising and selling meals high in fat, sugar and salt, to be heated at home and consumed alone.

People become overweight or obese because of years and decades of following bad habits.  Diets, if they succeed, work because they force the dieter to drop their old bad habits and adopting new, hopefully better habits.  Your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet works because it makes you immune to the current predators in the food environment.  You’re immune to MacDonalds and the current food manufacturers. 

I look forward to the time when new predators will evolve to exploit new prey.  When there will be fast food restaurant chains selling cheap readily available ketogenic meals.  When food manufacturers sell cheap ready to heat and consume ketogenic meals to eat at home.  And we’re discussing, if we’re still around, in a few decades why the epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes continues.

The predators don’t care about the health of their prey.

I don’t think diet is all that important, provided there’s not excessive simple sugars in the diet.  It doesn’t matter whether you’re getting 70% of your calories from fat or or 70% from carbohydrates, or any way in between, provided you’re not consuming excess calories.  It’s the habits that are important.  The habit that I personally find very useful is intermittent fasting (which John MacCrone also employed in addition to a low carbohydrate/high fat diet).  I eat one meal a day, at 6 pm (or 11 pm if I go to an evening concert) so I’m on 23:1 intermittent fasting.  And I’m never hungry.  And I’m also immune to the predators in the food environment.  I never eat cake to go along with a bought coffee, if I buy coffee outside the home - which is rare.  John MacCrone noted that he returned from a trip visiting many museums and galleries, and consuming many coffees with cake, at the museums and galleries, and wondered why he was feeling so thirsty when he got home (obviously from his then undiagnosed diabetes).

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1846 on: August 22, 2019, 08:16:49 PM »
know your reasons, and I think they’re wrong.
If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

I’m asking the question, because the discussion of the answer is interesting.

You think the reasons for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the dietary guidelines.

I think the reason for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the predators in the food environment.  The fast food restaurant chains heavily advertising cheap readily available apparently tasty calorie rich food.  The advertisers making it socially acceptable to eat anywhere, any when.  In America, around 1/5 of meals are consumed in cars.  The food manufacturers advertising and selling meals high in fat, sugar and salt, to be heated at home and consumed alone.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can eat fast foods every day, their value meals and combos, and with the exception a couple micronutrients (sodium), be fully compatible with the dietary guidelines. They design their menus and foods to meet those requirements.

(We've covered this two or three times on this forum already, and the short answer is that if you look up the food labels at McDonalds or Burger King, etc. And add up the macro-nutrient and micro-nutrient values you'll find that they are well within the guidelines for typical meals.)

Quote
People become overweight or obese because of years and decades of following bad habits.  Diets, if they succeed, work because they force the dieter to drop their old bad habits and adopting new, hopefully better habits.  Your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet works because it makes you immune to the current predators in the food environment.  You’re immune to MacDonalds and the current food manufacturers. 

Following the dietary guidelines is a bad habit, and if you eat at McDonalds, you're very likely eating well within the bounds of the dietary guidelines.

Quote

I look forward to the time when new predators will evolve to exploit new prey.  When there will be fast food restaurant chains selling cheap readily available ketogenic meals.  When food manufacturers sell cheap ready to heat and consume ketogenic meals to eat at home.  And we’re discussing, if we’re still around, in a few decades why the epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes continues.

You're talking nonsense now. (again)

 
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1847 on: August 22, 2019, 08:53:21 PM »
know your reasons, and I think they’re wrong.
If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

I’m asking the question, because the discussion of the answer is interesting.

You think the reasons for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the dietary guidelines.

I think the reason for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the predators in the food environment.  The fast food restaurant chains heavily advertising cheap readily available apparently tasty calorie rich food.  The advertisers making it socially acceptable to eat anywhere, any when.  In America, around 1/5 of meals are consumed in cars.  The food manufacturers advertising and selling meals high in fat, sugar and salt, to be heated at home and consumed alone.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can eat fast foods every day, their value meals and combos, and with the exception a couple micronutrients (sodium), be fully compatible with the dietary guidelines. They design their menus and foods to meet those requirements.


Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.


ETA: Furthermore, the total fat and saturated fat in this one meal are 94% and 115% of the US daily value.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:58:51 PM by jt512 »
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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1848 on: August 22, 2019, 09:06:33 PM »
jt512,

Yes!  Now over to you, CarbShark?
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1849 on: August 22, 2019, 09:24:36 PM »
CarbShark sometimes seems to think that the only thing those guidelines recommend is macronutrient ratios.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1850 on: August 22, 2019, 10:19:47 PM »
CarbShark sometimes seems to think that the only thing those guidelines recommend is macronutrient ratios.


No. They used to recommend macronutrient ratios but they don’t anymore. They recommend eating patterns that just happen to have exactly the same macronutrient ratios as before.




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« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 10:26:09 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1851 on: August 22, 2019, 10:25:26 PM »
know your reasons, and I think they’re wrong.
If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

I’m asking the question, because the discussion of the answer is interesting.

You think the reasons for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the dietary guidelines.

I think the reason for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the predators in the food environment.  The fast food restaurant chains heavily advertising cheap readily available apparently tasty calorie rich food.  The advertisers making it socially acceptable to eat anywhere, any when.  In America, around 1/5 of meals are consumed in cars.  The food manufacturers advertising and selling meals high in fat, sugar and salt, to be heated at home and consumed alone.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can eat fast foods every day, their value meals and combos, and with the exception a couple micronutrients (sodium), be fully compatible with the dietary guidelines. They design their menus and foods to meet those requirements.


Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.

But, recommended calorie intake is based on BSR which is derived from weight and activity mainly and there are plenty of people who can consume far more than a 2k diet and still meet the guidelines.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1852 on: August 22, 2019, 10:27:05 PM »
CarbShark sometimes seems to think that the only thing those guidelines recommend is macronutrient ratios.


No. They used to recommend macronutrient ratios but they don’t anymore. They recommend eating patterns that just happen to have the same macronutrient ratios.


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No, they don’t. The USDA guidelines recommend a lot more than eating patterns, which is the point that gmalivuk was making.  And you’re dead wrong in claiming that most people are meeting the guidelines, and hence it’s the guidelines that are causing the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes.  The guidelines contain many graphs showing how many Americans are exceeding the maximum limits or failing to reach the recommended minimums of nutrients, and it’s most.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1853 on: August 22, 2019, 10:38:12 PM »
know your reasons, and I think they’re wrong.
If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

I’m asking the question, because the discussion of the answer is interesting.

You think the reasons for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the dietary guidelines.

I think the reason for the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes are the predators in the food environment.  The fast food restaurant chains heavily advertising cheap readily available apparently tasty calorie rich food.  The advertisers making it socially acceptable to eat anywhere, any when.  In America, around 1/5 of meals are consumed in cars.  The food manufacturers advertising and selling meals high in fat, sugar and salt, to be heated at home and consumed alone.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can eat fast foods every day, their value meals and combos, and with the exception a couple micronutrients (sodium), be fully compatible with the dietary guidelines. They design their menus and foods to meet those requirements.


Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.

But, recommended calorie intake is based on BSR which is derived from weight and activity mainly and there are plenty of people who can consume far more than a 2k diet and still meet the guidelines.


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You won’t meet the guidelines for vegetables and dairy if you’re only having 660 kcals at the other two meals.
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1854 on: August 22, 2019, 10:40:06 PM »
Quote
Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.
Right, a breakfast and lunch with almost no total fat and negative saturated fat.

But also, if someone on 2300kcal/day (so the saturated fat from the McDonald's meal was right at 100%), and they got the recommended balance of the rest of their nutrients in breakfast and lunch, are you arguing that they'd still be significantly unhealthy due to the one fast food meal? Because I don't know that that's true. The problem isn't that people eat fast food for lunch, it's that they eat badly for all of their meals.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1855 on: August 22, 2019, 11:10:35 PM »
Quote
Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.
Right, a breakfast and lunch with almost no total fat and negative saturated fat.

But also, if someone on 2300kcal/day (so the saturated fat from the McDonald's meal was right at 100%), and they got the recommended balance of the rest of their nutrients in breakfast and lunch, are you arguing that they'd still be significantly unhealthy due to the one fast food meal? Because I don't know that that's true. The problem isn't that people eat fast food for lunch, it's that they eat badly for all of their meals.

And I’d also argue that many people won’t stop at the standard three meals a day.  They’ll also have snacks, which might include a MacDonald product, such as a muffin with their coffee at morning tea.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1856 on: August 22, 2019, 11:15:28 PM »

Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.


ETA: Furthermore, the total fat and saturated fat in this one meal are 94% and 115% of the US daily value.


The RDI for fat is based on a 2k kcal diet. If you are large and/or very active the recommendations will specify higher calorie diet, with larger amounts of fats, etc.

For example, my RDA for my height, weight age and activity level is 2800 calories per day for gradual weight loss. (I eat less than that and am weight stable)


Change My Recommended Daily Intake (RDI)
Quote
https://www.fatsecret.com/Default.aspx?pa=cmrdiYour Recommended Daily Intake (RDI) is
2800* calories

* This is an estimate of the ideal recommended daily calorie intake
for you based on your diet goals and activity level selected.


https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/about-our-food/nutrition-calculator.html

This looks like the meal you're describing:

1340  Calories

61 grams Total Fat (94% daily value)
 
146 grams Carbohydrates (49% daily value)

55 grams Protein 55 g

Calories From Fat: 550 Cal.

  Saturated Fat: 23 g
  Trans Fat: 2.5 g

Cholesterol: 175 mg
Sodium: 1595 mg
Dietary Fiber: 7 g

Sugars: 69 g
Vitamin A: 1110 IU
Vitamin C: 14 mg
Calcium: 217 mg
Iron: 7.5 mg

Coca-Cola®
  Standard Ingredients
  150 Calories
  Medium
 
World Famous Fries®
  Standard Ingredients
  340 Calories
  Medium   

Double Quarter Pounder®* with Cheese
  780 Calories
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I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1857 on: August 22, 2019, 11:25:45 PM »
Quote
Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.
Right, a breakfast and lunch with almost no total fat and negative saturated fat.

See my post about RDIs.

Quote
But also, if someone on 2300kcal/day (so the saturated fat from the McDonald's meal was right at 100%), and they got the recommended balance of the rest of their nutrients in breakfast and lunch, are you arguing that they'd still be significantly unhealthy due to the one fast food meal? Because I don't know that that's true. The problem isn't that people eat fast food for lunch, it's that they eat badly for all of their meals.

Well, no that's not what I'm arguing. Maybe that's what BF is arguing, it's hard to know.

I'm arguing that you can carefully follow the dietary guidelines; staying within the caloric, macronutrient and micronutrient ranges for your RDI, and still progress to obesity and TIID and the other chronic diseases associated with obesity.  I would further argue that a good portion of the 70+% of the American public who are now overweight or obese did exactly that.

I'm also arguing that McDonalds and other fast food outlets designed their menus to meet the dietary guidelines.

Remember the progression from normal weight to obesity for most is gradual. 5+/- pounds per year, which is an average of like 30 calories per day. That's one bite of that big mac.

I'm also arguing that the high sugar and carb content of those meals causes insulin levels that lead to the storage of an extra 30 calories per day on average.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1858 on: August 22, 2019, 11:55:11 PM »
Quote
Um, no.  The McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese combo meal, for example, contains 1340 kcal, more than half the energy requirements for a whole day in a single meal.  That is not within the bounds of anybody's dietay guidelines.
That still allows for a 260 kcal breakfast and 400kcal lunch on a 2k kcal diet.
Right, a breakfast and lunch with almost no total fat and negative saturated fat.

See my post about RDIs.

Quote
But also, if someone on 2300kcal/day (so the saturated fat from the McDonald's meal was right at 100%), and they got the recommended balance of the rest of their nutrients in breakfast and lunch, are you arguing that they'd still be significantly unhealthy due to the one fast food meal? Because I don't know that that's true. The problem isn't that people eat fast food for lunch, it's that they eat badly for all of their meals.

Well, no that's not what I'm arguing. Maybe that's what BF is arguing, it's hard to know.

I'm arguing that you can carefully follow the dietary guidelines; staying within the caloric, macronutrient and micronutrient ranges for your RDI, and still progress to obesity and TIID and the other chronic diseases associated with obesity.  I would further argue that a good portion of the 70+% of the American public who are now overweight or obese did exactly that.

I'm also arguing that McDonalds and other fast food outlets designed their menus to meet the dietary guidelines.

Remember the progression from normal weight to obesity for most is gradual. 5+/- pounds per year, which is an average of like 30 calories per day. That's one bite of that big mac.

I'm also arguing that the high sugar and carb content of those meals causes insulin levels that lead to the storage of an extra 30 calories per day on average.

I’m not arguing that someone is going to become significantly unhealthy by eating one MacDonald meal a day.  But you are arguing that they will be, just because of the carbohydrates in the bread roll.  And the fried potato chips.  And the sugar in the soft drink (well, I’d agree with you with the last item).

I’m actually arguing that a person eating one MacDonald meal a day won’t be meeting the dietary guidelines.  You’re arguing that obesity is due to people following the dietary guidelines, which most people don’t, not even close.

And the guidelines state as their first principle for people to adopt a diet that results in you maintaining a healthy body weight.  If you’re putting on 5 lbs a year, you’re not weighing yourself regularly, and you’re eating too much.

As I’ve noted many times, people eat for many reasons.  Because they’re hungry.  Or they enjoy the food.  Or they’re bored, and eating fills in the time.  Or to be social.  Or because they’re worried or anxious (food is a good mood lifter).  Or out of habit.

Most people in developed countries such as America or Australia don’t know what hunger is.  They’re eating for the other reasons.
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