Author Topic: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread  (Read 27292 times)

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Offline 1Pirate

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #420 on: July 10, 2016, 03:43:36 PM »

It's not as if the whole system is abandoned, it's that they're making an exception under exceptional circumstances.  And just because there've been other wars doesn't mean these are not circumstances that warrant such an exception.

There have been times when bastards become kings, William the Conqueror was a bastard, for a real world example.  This is not an impossible thing and under the circumstances in the story it makes sense to me.


There is no reason to make an exception. On one side, there is a bastard and an oathbreaker. On the other, the trueborn heir of Eddard Stark and someone who is also in line to rule Riverrun and the Vale. He has a few hundred surviving wildlings, she has thousands of kinghts from the Vale.

This is not real life, this is Westeros. Being a bastard seems much worse.

First off, the oathbreaker thing is ridiculous. It took some time for all the other lords to assemble, and at no point did the Night's Watch report him as a deserter, so it's more than reasonable to assume the Lord Commander gave him leave to go down after he resigned(besides do they really think Jon would resign as Lord Commander if he thought the next Lord Commander wouldn't give him permission to go).

Being born a bastard is irrelevant in this case as Robb Stark(who they all recognized as KitN) legitimized him and there's plenty of precedent for legitimized bastards to take their house titles.

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Why wouldn't they rally behind Sansa, the person who is responsible for winning the battle, who appeared with thousands of mounted knights when the battle seemed lost? From the perspective of someone on the ground, Sansa is a saviour and Jon is someone who almost got me killed.


But none of those Lords were at the battle. It was all wildlings and a token force from House Mormount. If you'll recall, the wildlings all think Jon is a god(except for the ones that had seen his pecker), so they're still giving their loyalty to him. And by Northern standards he showed pretty good leadership the day before when he called out Ramsay at the parley(probably makes an even bigger impression on a 10-year-old), so Lyanna supporting him is reasonable.

So from the Northern Lords' perspective, his only tactical mistake was attacking with inferior numbers. And since he won, they likely feel like cravens for not following him.

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Those kings had power. A monarch has to gain power from somewhere. Cersei is broke, the church obviously doesn't support her, the court doesn't support her and her army consists of one big guy and one failed maester. Furthermore, there is a whole, now hostile Tyrell army within the city walls. She wouldn't make it up the stairs to the Iron Throne without being lynched in the world  of the books.

Wrong. She had the Lannister army backing her up. The Sept was still smoking when they were looking down at the city, so it's unlikely the surviving Tyrells had time to mobilize and seize the Keep before the army got there(and that's assuming the Tyrells instantaneously knew that Tommen had killed himself). Furthermore, considering all the high ranking Tyrells were killed at the Sept, it seems doubtful a low ranking officer is going to be so brazen as to try to occupy the entire city. They'd almost certainly retreat to Highgarden and await orders from there.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #421 on: July 10, 2016, 08:50:47 PM »
Afaik, Jon was not legitimised by Robb?
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Legitimization
Also, theres no reason to think he would be given leave from the watch without a written pass. Because otherwise the same assumtion could have been made of any deserter. Its not like they have the tech to put out an APB and if you 'resign' from the watch, you are an oathbreaker (unless you died.)
Also, I thought Jaime had most of the Lanister army? Kings Landing has its own standing guard who seemed to be in control while cercei was there and thats the reason she needed her zombie bodyguard?

Offline 1Pirate

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #422 on: July 11, 2016, 02:45:40 AM »
Afaik, Jon was not legitimised by Robb?
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Legitimization
Ah, I got the books and TV show mixed up. Robb did sign a decree in front of witnesses in the books, but it looks like there was never anything in the show.

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Also, theres no reason to think he would be given leave from the watch without a written pass. Because otherwise the same assumtion could have been made of any deserter. Its not like they have the tech to put out an APB and if you 'resign' from the watch, you are an oathbreaker (unless you died.)

Jon is not just any deserter. He's a former Lord Commander, and in fact, it's only by his own admission that they'd even know he's no longer Lord Commander(any official announcement in the change of command from the Watch wouldn't name him a deserter). Are they really going to not wait for confirmation from Castle Black until executing him? Add on the fact that Sansa(a trueborn heir to House Stark) is vouching for him, calling him an oathbreaker seems too pedantic for a Northern Lord.

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Also, I thought Jaime had most of the Lanister army? Kings Landing has its own standing guard who seemed to be in control while cercei was there and thats the reason she needed her zombie bodyguard?
Jaime does have most of the Lannister army and they arrive in King's Landing shortly after the Sept blows up.

The Critics agree:     "1pirate is too good" --Black Magic
                                 "1pirate is too damn good" --AlexButterfield
                                 "F*ckin 1P - we really need to kill him" --StoneQuarry

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #423 on: July 11, 2016, 05:48:48 AM »
But the Lord Commander is still a brother of the watch. They dont get to retire and he doesnt have the power to release anyone(?as far as i remember...im constantly wrong).

Offline stonesean

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #424 on: July 11, 2016, 08:57:54 AM »
But the Lord Commander is still a brother of the watch. They dont get to retire and he doesnt have the power to release anyone(?as far as i remember...im constantly wrong).

A Night's Watchman's(?) oath is that he will stand his watch until death.  He very clearly died.  I think he has a strong argument that he is now free from his oath.
Well.  There it is.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #425 on: July 12, 2016, 05:18:01 AM »
But the Lord Commander is still a brother of the watch. They dont get to retire and he doesnt have the power to release anyone(?as far as i remember...im constantly wrong).

A Night's Watchman's(?) oath is that he will stand his watch until death.  He very clearly died.  I think he has a strong argument that he is now free from his oath.
Yes! Absolutely!
My argument is that anyone who didnt know he died or doesnt quite believe it, must assume he is a deserter.

Offline teethering

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #426 on: July 12, 2016, 04:55:05 PM »
The thing is that information about significant events travels fast in this world.  Jon dicked around at the wall after being resurrected and he traveled with an army, so it's perfectly reasonable that what happened reached in some form the Northern lords at around the same time or earlier than Jon's arrival.  It's perfectly reasonable that they have some version of "he was the commander of Night's watch, he got killed by his own, he came back to life and he fucked off".  The fact that it is "until death" is integral to the oath and would not be missed by anyone, so in my mind the prevailing view of Jon in the North should be that of a man with special destiny and not a deserter.  It's possible, I think, to be suspicious of the magic that brought him back to life.  But overall I think it's unlikely that sort of news wouldn't spread quickly in the North, but it may be something that inspires fear as well as awe.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Readers (Lots of Book Spoilers) Game of Thrones TV Show Thread
« Reply #427 on: July 12, 2016, 05:31:17 PM »
Honestly, I cant be arsed watching those conversations happening anyway.
I think they had the information and believed it or pretended they believed it or they just didnt care if he was a deserter when they need a unifying military leader for the north.

 

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