Author Topic: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread  (Read 21223 times)

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Offline Karyn

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #150 on: June 14, 2012, 03:47:47 PM »
Honestly, I don't even care if removing the porn threads welcomes people back.  I just don't see the need for them to exist.  And EhJayArr, I don't think this qualifies as censorship - it's more about decorum/time and place.  This isn't the venue for such things, just like its not the venue for a MLP fan club.  That's not to say MLP fan clubs and/or porn shouldn't exist, they just shouldn't exist here/angry debates don't belong in a quiet opera hall/chess games don't belong at an AC/DC concert/etc.

It's not censorship in the same sense that saying you can't walk naked through my dinner party is not censorship.

Yeah, but hot damn, that sounds like fun.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2012, 03:48:48 PM »
I avoided the last 5 or so drama threads.  I wonder how I'll handle this one...

EDIT -

Clearly by being smug and feigning superiority over having not posted.  Clearly the best way to dramatically avoid drama.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline stonesean

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2012, 03:49:27 PM »
I agree with Irreverend.

It's of no consequence to me if Explicit vanished tomorrow.

I just don't think it would have the positive outcomes that some are hoping for.   If it did, it would be wonderful. Maybe we should give it a try.

I must admit I have had fun in the past with Explicit being cage for the trolls, occasionally strolling by and poking em with a stick.
Well.  There it is.

Offline AxeGrrl

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2012, 03:51:30 PM »
I gave you my reason, and based on what KarenX and others have said, I am sure that my reaction is shared by others. That you don't care that I or others have to put up with that constant negative feeling is not my problem. If shutting that down can attract more people to the forum because it changes the context in which our discussions take place, then I welcome the change. If I agree with the NY Times not carrying the photo of a sexy lady in each edition, am I censoring? If I think that the newspapers who do are being sexist, because of the reasons I explained earlier, am I censoring? No, I'm stating my point of view. I would rather the forum were like the Times. It's an editorial decision, not a censorship decision. I do not advocate for the world being rid of porn. I just don't think it adds to the discussion here, and it clearly is one of the reasons why some posters don't feel welcome.


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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2012, 03:58:26 PM »
Quote
EL, JS, and Seaotter... Once again, I agree they're unnecessary, but having people that don't want to see naked pictures just not go to the explicit section is (imo) a much better solution than banning any material that some people find objectionable.
Nope, that's not what I was arguing at all. The necessity of pr0ns never entered into my reasoning, except that of course if they *were* necessary my argument would be pretty invalid.
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2012, 04:03:06 PM »
EL, JS, and Seaotter... Once again, I agree they're unnecessary, but having people that don't want to see naked pictures just not go to the explicit section is (imo) a much better solution than banning any material that some people find objectionable.

Should we just ban nudity? Maybe we should ban naughty words too, since I'm certain that many people would prefer to not read naughty words.

I'm not saying that's the only reason.  Check out the bolded part here:

To rephrase from my POV, I think the fact that it isn't necessary combined with the fact it draws some people away (regardless of how much we agree with them) we otherwise would welcome here is good enough reason to increase censorship.

What I'm saying is that the fact erotic nudity is not needed at all on this site enables us to make an easy decision about what to do in response to people who avoid our site because of it.  If it's not needed and it causes a problem, regardless of whether we think it should, then why keep it?  To be clear; I'm not talking about all nudity on the site, but only gratuitous nudity mainly meant for the evaluation by other members.

To me this is like your ass.  You have it, there's nothing wrong with it, everyone knows you have it, but you kinda have to pick and choose where to whip it out based on expected social reactions.  In the sauna you won't have much of a problem, but on the floor of the gym while lifting weights might be an issue.  Objectively, there's nothing evil or wrong about what your ass looks like and as such no objective reason to hide it, but there are a multitude of subjective ones which you can disagree with as much as you please while your ass is being thrown out. 

Offline Karyn

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2012, 04:04:34 PM »
ass analogy.  Win.

Offline Tai Fung

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2012, 04:05:01 PM »
I don't see the need for pr0n here.  Why give those who hate us, and that are ALREADY looking for reasons to ascribe fault to us, any extra ammo?   
Atheism should be about "Science and Social Justice" the same way Math should be about "Numbers and Fashion."

Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2012, 04:07:12 PM »
Cool, we're getting somewhere.

So the debate is:

Does the existence of porn on the SGU forums have negative effects?

Some people have said they are put off by its presence--but is their opinion important enough to enforce on the entire forum? Will banning porn have a net positive effect?

One positive effect might be that some folks who decided not to take part in these forums because they house porn off in some dark corner might then decide to participate. I imagine the number of these people is very small.

One negative effect might be that those same folks might realize that they can successfully lobby to have anything they don't like banned. Naughty words would probably be next: they're not necessary, and they make some people feel unwelcome.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 04:10:32 PM by EhJayArr »
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2012, 04:08:05 PM »
I don't see the need for pr0n here.  Why give those who hate us, and that are ALREADY looking for reasons to ascribe fault to us, any extra ammo?

Irony that stephanie know so little about the forum that she doesn't know it's a reasonable critique.
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »
Come on! Slippery slope?
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2012, 04:17:37 PM »
No, it's not a slippery slope (that because one thing happens it will lead to extreme results)--it's an analogy (A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification).   ::)

The popular argument at the moment is that porn should be banned because some people find it off-putting, and it's not necessary for the forums.

Naughty words are also off-putting to many people, and are not necessary for the forums.

If we ban porn, we should also ban naughty words, right? What's the difference?
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2012, 04:20:18 PM »
Quote
Some people have said they are put off by its presence--but is their opinion important enough to enforce on the entire forum? Will banning porn have a net positive effect?
Again, hoping you aren't lumping me in with that group because it also doesn't describe my argument against it at all.

Quote
No, it's not a slippery slope (that because one thing happens it will lead to extreme results)--it's an analogy (A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification).
Nope, it's a slippery slope. An "analogy" would be introducing something completely different for the sake of comparison. EL's ass is an example of an analogy. This is a slippery slope, and it's a slippery slope fallacy because there is absolutely no evidence that banning porn now will lead to banning naughty words later. There are many, many, many message boards and blogs extant that do not allow porn but do allow bad words.
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2012, 04:20:54 PM »
Cool, we're getting somewhere.

So the debate is:

Does the existence of porn on the SGU forums have negative effects?

Some people have said they are put off by its presence--but is there opinion important enough to enforce on the entire forum? Will banning porn have a net positive effect?

One positive effect might be that some folks that decided not to take part in these forums because they house porn off in some dark corner might then decide to participate. I imagine the number of these people is very small.

One negative effect might be that those same folks might realize that they can successfully lobby to have anything they don't like banned. Naughty words would probably be next: they're not necessary, and they make some people feel unwelcome.

The only people that even remotely lobbied for it are prominent users and as far as I'm concerned, I want to feel like doing so with reason can actually make a change.  For me though, I'm more worried about those who don't say anything when they make their decision than those who leave in a puff of drama.  If several prominent female users have expressed a problem with it, or even just having to overcome having a problem with it then I'd say it's almost certain that far more people have left without saying a word or never even stayed.

Also, I don't think appealing to this reasoning being faulty for deciding to remove another topic which hasn't even been broached is valid.  Without going into detail, I don't think the plus and minus columns of removing "naughty" words equals the plus and minus column of removing erotic images.

Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Always Moving Forward: The Discussion Thread
« Reply #164 on: June 14, 2012, 04:22:36 PM »
Well then break it down for me:

Porn: off-putting to some users, might discourage some people from participating, not necessary for the forums.
Naughty words: off-putting to some users, might discourage some people from participating, not necessary for the forums.

Where's the difference?
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