Author Topic: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)  (Read 55064 times)

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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: SPOILERS ABIDE)
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 02:07:39 PM »
Quote
Also there seems to be a crapload of coincidence in the loaning of cellphones and cars on the day of the murder to believe Adnan wasn't at least aware of what Jay was doing.
There's really not. What there is is a lot of evidence - in fact, this is documented in the interview itself - that the investigators sat down with Jay and the cell records and allowed him to reconcile his story with the towers. The problem is, even with this, his account is still not consistent with them:
I guess I was really looking for something to suggest that Adnan had no part in this, other than his insistence he had no part in this. I think a few coincidences is enough to cast doubt, but there are a crapload of coincidences that suggest he was around and with Jay the day of the murder. While I am internally fairly convinced that Jay is the triggerman, I just don't see a path that says Adnan didn't ask Jay to do it and get involved in the coverup. Clearly the investigators did help to concoct the timeline, but that says more about Jay's story and nothing about Adnan's inability to explain the huge coincidences or provide an alibi.
If Jay did all of this, pinned it on Adnan months later, he was extremely lucky in that he is exploiting Adnan's timeline in ways he couldn't have known or foreseen that would have caused his entire version to collapse. All that it would have required would be for Adnan to be doing something visible at the time of the crime, which Jay couldn't have known about - unless he knew exactly where Adnan was, which is kind of my point: with him.

Another aspect that bothers me is that Adnan said he would kill Hae, and wrote it down in a notebook that he would kill Hae, and then shortly after Hae is murdered. How many of us write down we want to murder someone? Maybe I'm extrapolating too much from myself, but I don't think most of us, even if we felt hurt and betrayed, would walk around talking about how we wanted to kill someone. I can see Jay being the impulsive type. I have known people just like him and I could see them killing someone for all the wrong reasons on an impulse, particularly if asked to do it. I'm also not big into "The Stranger" method of proving guilt, but if Adnan was in contact with Hae before she disappeared, then failed to contact her even once when she vanished... uhhh, that seems a weird time to stop reaching out to someone. It just smells too fishy.

Again, though, I think in a courtroom Adnan should have gotten off, even if I'm suspicious he was involved.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: SPOILERS ABIDE)
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2014, 11:59:25 AM »
Having looked a number of other cases, I don't think I agree that police are actual good skeptics. . . .Too many times do they latch onto the most outlandish theories. Even if maybe I am looking at the wrong cases, the crazy ones, I have also read books where the interview police officers. In the 1980s, a bunch argued for Satanic Ritual Abuse. As well, during this time Richmond VA had a ritual crime unit.
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Offline JohnM

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 08:49:03 AM »
Episode 11


Well I thought this was the most irrelevant episode so far, we learnt nothing.
The whole episode was suggestion and innuendo about how he might be a psychopath then at the end it was rubbished.
So Adnan stole some money from the mosque. It has no relevance to the murder case.
When I was his age I stole stuff from shops and sold it the playground. If my parents or som1 asked me how I got the money I would just say I did some garden work.
If he had a history of violent outbursts that might be different but petty cash? hardly any different from downloading a torrent.

Only one episode left though I cant see how som1 wont continue with the case in some way? There will be so much demand.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 05:03:54 PM by JohnM »

Offline mindme

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2014, 09:00:10 AM »
I agree the rumors ep didn't tell us much, other than "next ep is the last". Although, it was interesting that people typically commit murder not because they carefully plan it out but they do think about it. "I'd be better off if my wife was dead." And it turns over in their mind for a while and then one day there's a fight and that tips the balance.

I noticed this case has been getting some real world press.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2014, 10:27:51 AM »
The innocence project lawyer, I have to agree that almost people who commit a crime are dumb ones. Crimes, including murders, are usually pretty simple. Certain cases you do get a feel that the defendants are innocent and innocent defendants have the hardest time defending themselves.
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2014, 01:50:19 PM »
The criminal psychologist was the heart of it, I thought. I don't think that any of *us* were persuaded here but that's probably because all of us are at least familiar with Jon Ronson and have at least an inkling that a. the term "psychopath" is thrown around way too often, and b. it's usually complete bullshit anyway. For me, the fact that Adnan has not engaged in psychopathic behavior in his 15 years in prison means that it is highly, highly unlikely that he is a psychopath now playing a "long con" to get out of prison eventually.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2014, 03:04:55 PM »
The criminal psychologist was the heart of it, I thought. I don't think that any of *us* were persuaded here but that's probably because all of us are at least familiar with Jon Ronson and have at least an inkling that a. the term "psychopath" is thrown around way too often, and b. it's usually complete bullshit anyway. For me, the fact that Adnan has not engaged in psychopathic behavior in his 15 years in prison means that it is highly, highly unlikely that he is a psychopath now playing a "long con" to get out of prison eventually.

If you look at cases where an innocent person is arrested and convicted, they often have a harder time getting out of jail than somebody who is guilty. This is both because they will not show remorse in parole boards and they are less likely to accept whatever plea  that the prosecution offers.
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Offline JohnM

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2014, 06:03:52 PM »

Read a couple of reviews of the episode and they were in agreement this was a non-episode.




Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2014, 02:25:56 PM »

Read a couple of reviews of the episode and they were in agreement this was a non-episode.
I agree with Slick. While the stealing was a diversion, and possibly interesting to some people, it was part of the criminal psychologist's case and the process Sara was using to try and determine who Adnan was for herself (and by extension for us).

My initial reaction was "I know he's not a psychopath" based on what has been said about him, but then I realized this is an area of interest to me and most of the skeptic community, so we're kind of ahead of the general public on the usage of that term.
I also think it was meant to highlight that even though Adnan doesn't seem like a killer, most people have it in them, even if for only a short period of time. I don't know where that will leave us in the last episode, I doubt there's a shocker or case breaker in it, but the psychologist was useful in setting our heads straight about Adnan's ability "to do the crime."
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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2014, 03:12:01 PM »
I don't think there's going to be a payoff for the annoying way the story's been dribbled at us.  I'm not likely to listen to a second season.
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2014, 12:42:38 AM »
I briefly went on /r/serialpodcast and they were all up in arms about the "Rumors" episode too.  I don't get the hate for it honestly.  So far, Koenig has pretty well laid out how conflicting all the available evidence and testimony is and has essentially said all along that she cannot come to a final conclusion on the matter because of it.  "Rumors" was her looking at the character of Adnan and also searching for any scrap of history that would jive with him being a stone-cold killer.  Seems like she pretty easily wrote off the rumors as either baseless or inconsequential.  Also, like Johnny said, ruling out the possibility that Adnan is a psychopath is equally important for the listener's perception of him.  Lastly, reading from the letter Adnan wrote her directly combated a lot of accusations about how he has behaved in the interviews in past episodes (i.e. "Why isn't he frothing at the mouth at every turn about being wronged?!").

No, it was not an episode with all sorts of juicy new facts and evidence, but it was extremely useful in taking a look at who Adnan was and is.  Since we are extremely unlikely to get a smoking gun, or rock-solid alibi next episode, and given the murky nature of what we do have it seems obvious to me that most people's opinions are going to rest largely on their perceptions of Adnan.

For my personal take, as I've not weighed in yet, at the very least I think he should not have been convicted based on the evidence and testimony provided.  There was an inordinate amount of reasonable doubt that should have gotten in the way of that.  That being said, he wasn't found not guilty and as I understand it, there is a higher bar to get the sentence overturned and I'm not sure he's able to meet that bar.  My sense is that Jay is clearly more culpable than he says and that Adnan is probably innocent, but there has to be some substantial piece of information that is being hidden to explain it; the case as we know it doesn't seem to provide a motive for anyone else to want to kill her.  Being that it's 15 years after when this information should have been sought out though, I think it's highly unlikely that it will reveal itself unfortunately.  For all we know, Hae's last boyfriend could have been the jealous type and was good friends with Jay so they set out to kill Hae and frame Adnan.  Fat chance of that ever coming out if it's the case though.

All-in-all, I'm under no illusions that this story is going to wrap up neatly with a bow.  I fully expect the last episode to be largely about how it's impossible to come to a firm conclusion with the available facts and what that means legally.  Koenig will probably address the unavoidable criticism that her first season didn't solve the mystery it set out to as well.  I suspect it will end with an aside on the innocence project people's efforts on Adnan's behalf.  It's possible Koenig's withholding some key piece for the last episode, but I doubt it.  I can't say I have a single complaint about this show though.  It's been fascinating from day one and I've loved every moment of it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 12:45:59 AM by Eternally Learning »

Offline JohnM

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2014, 07:26:31 AM »

I think there is some truth in Sarah now downplaying the final couple of shows because she is a bit put off by the amount of people who have got involved and making their own investigations.  There was talk of more than 12 but that is now out of the question.

There is so much she could focus on probably enough for another 3-4 episodes jut whats on reddit and i've not read much over there.

I hope Sarah presents her own conclusions on the case.

The only remaining question is will anyone carry it on after Sarah?

Offline mindme

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2014, 10:38:29 AM »
she is a bit put off by the amount of people who have got involved and making their own investigations.  There was talk of more than 12 but that is now out of the question.

Boy, I hope people don't start harassing people involved.
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Offline Movius

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2014, 07:28:56 AM »
RIP in peace Mailkimp.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Serial Podcast (WARNING: THE DUDE ABIDES)
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2014, 08:20:27 AM »
Get off work at 5:50ish.  Check my podcast list for updates like usual.  HOLY SHIT IT'S SERIAL FINALE DAY!!  YES!  It's been uploaded!  Click to download for my perfectly timed 50 minute drive home.  Wait for it to finish.  Still Waiting.  Shit!  It's downloading SLOOOOW.  Guess I'm not the only one jumping on it early.  It's not even done by the time I get home...  Well, time for an extra long morning walk!

Gotta say, I really liked the ending.  Wrapped it up the only way it could be wrapped up IMO, and on top of that brought some new things to light we didn't know about and revisited so old things that needed it.  I really look forward to seeing where Adnan's case goes and what happens to him and I cannot wait for season 2!

 

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