Author Topic: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?  (Read 2044 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #210 on: January 17, 2020, 03:09:12 PM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials


No thanks.

But it does demonstrate your antipathy to carbohydrates.  You were obese 10 years ago, and now you’re not (obese that is, you haven’t clarified whether you’re not overweight)), so obviously you should be healthier and fitter now than you would otherwise have been.  And you ascribe it to your diet.  But you don’t know whether you would be healthier and fitter if you were on another diet, with the same weight.

Again you with the poor reading comprehension. I did not and do not ascribe to my diet the fact that I am healthier and fitter than most people I know my age and demographic. 

That wasn't even the context. Instead I was responding to claims that the LCHF diet may be dangerous or negatively impact health and fitness by pointing out that compared to others not on the diet my health and fitness has not declined.

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My suggestion was that you should try a short trial and replenish your skeletal muscle glycogen stores with some carbohydrates for a few days, and assess whether it increases, decreases or has no effect on your anaerobic fitness.

There is no need to replenish my skeletal muscle glycogen scores because they are naturally replenished on my diet. (It's only during the induction period when you first start a LCHF diet that glycogen is depleted and it is fully replenished by the time you are fat adapted, within 3 to 4 week).
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Where’s the harm in that?  Getting out of a nutritional ketosis for a few weeks won’t cause any long term harm, assuming that it’s of health benefit (which I doubt).

No good purpose; the risk is that going off my diet I may have issues going back on;  anytime someone on a diet returns to a "normal" diet they put on weight faster than they lost it so even a short term change could add a significant amount of excess fat, which I don't want.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #211 on: January 17, 2020, 03:56:33 PM »
CarbShark,

You think you’re healthier and fitter on your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, but you don’t know it.  There are no long term studies showing that your diet is healthier or better than any other diet.  It could be healthier and better.  It could also be worse and less healthy.  I suspect it will be much the same as any other acceptable diet.

But you don’t know that you wouldn’t be healthier or fitter on some other acceptable diet.

You won’t replenish skeletal muscle glycogen stores of around 400 grams on a daily protein intake amounting of around 25% of calories (which would be 125 grams a day on 2000 kcal a day) after subtracting the minimum daily protein requirements to cover inefficiencies in the normal turnover of tissue protein (around 50 grams a day) if you’re engaging in anaerobic exercise, which preferentially uses glucose as an energy source, and thus depletes glycogen.  If you’re also relying on excess dietary protein to supply glucose for the brain (ketone bodies can only provide about 2/3 of the brain’s energy requirements).

How much body weight and body fat are you going to put on after 4 days if you don’t follow your diet?  I know from experience that if I go off my intermittent fasting (because I’m travelling on an organised tour, which provides ‘free’ breakfasts and lunches) I’ll put on 3 kg in 3 weeks.  It will take me roughly twice the time to lose it when I revert to my strategy of intermittent fasting.

Your diet must be very difficult if even you with a lot of experience with it would have so much trouble going back on it after such a short period off it.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #212 on: January 17, 2020, 04:31:42 PM »

You think you’re healthier and fitter on your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, but you don’t know it.

Clearly I am. By numerous objective standards. The comparison is like night and day.
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 There are no long term studies showing that your diet is healthier or better than any other diet.

Nor worse, nor are there any long term studies showing the intermittent fasting diet or any other dies is healthier or better than any other.

So we rely on RCTs that produce tangible results (serum cholesterol; blood pressure; weight; body fat percentage; risk factors for CVD; risk factors for diabetes and other chronic disease).
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  It could be healthier and better.  It could also be worse and less healthy.  I suspect it will be much the same as any other acceptable diet.

Your suspicions are adorable. But not based on science.


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But you don’t know that you wouldn’t be healthier or fitter on some other acceptable diet.

Nor do you no does anyone else.
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You won’t replenish skeletal muscle glycogen stores of around 400 grams on a daily protein intake amounting of around 25% of calories (which would be 125 grams a day on 2000 kcal a day) after subtracting the minimum daily protein requirements to cover inefficiencies in the normal turnover of tissue protein (around 50 grams a day) if you’re engaging in anaerobic exercise, which preferentially uses glucose as an energy source, and thus depletes glycogen.  If you’re also relying on excess dietary protein to supply glucose for the brain (ketone bodies can only provide about 2/3 of the brain’s energy requirements).

That's not what the science says.

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How much body weight and body fat are you going to put on after 4 days if you don’t follow your diet? 

Pounds.  But what would be the purpose of going off the diet for 4 days?

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Your diet must be very difficult if even you with a lot of experience with it would have so much trouble going back on it after such a short period off it.

I've never gone off it, so I don't know how I would react. I know I used to be addicted to sugar, and now I'm not.

Going back to a "normal" diet would be like an ex smoker having going back to cigarettes for a week, or a recovering alcoholic going back to drinking for a week.

That would be really stupid. So, again, no fucking thanks.
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Offline jt512

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #213 on: January 17, 2020, 04:45:30 PM »

You won’t replenish skeletal muscle glycogen stores of around 400 grams on a daily protein intake amounting of around 25% of calories (which would be 125 grams a day on 2000 kcal a day) after subtracting the minimum daily protein requirements to cover inefficiencies in the normal turnover of tissue protein (around 50 grams a day) if you’re engaging in anaerobic exercise, which preferentially uses glucose as an energy source, and thus depletes glycogen.  If you’re also relying on excess dietary protein to supply glucose for the brain (ketone bodies can only provide about 2/3 of the brain’s energy requirements).

That's not what the science says.


The science says that the amount of liver glycogen depends directly on the amount of carbohydrate in the diet and that low carbohydrate diets are detrimental to anaerobic performance. The simplest explanation for that would be lower muscle glycogen stores.


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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #214 on: January 17, 2020, 05:03:59 PM »
CarbShark,

You won’t put on pounds going off your diet for 4 days or a week.  To put on a single pound of fat, you need to have consumed an excess of 3500 kcals over expenditure.  A calorie is a calorie is a calorie.

Sugar isn’t addictive, just because it produces dopamine release in the pleasure centres of the brain, just like real addictive drugs that produce serious withdrawal symptoms, and sometimes death.  There are no withdrawal symptoms with sugar.

Your RCTs on your diet are short term studies of weight loss in the obese and overweight.  Of course, their blood lipid profiles are going to improve if they lose weight, and I completely accept that your diet is an effective strategy for losing weight, just like many other diets.

The evidence that it’s safe and healthy long term is just lacking.  Your proselytising for your diet is not justified by the evidence, because it just doesn’t exist.

And intermittent fasting isn’t a diet, it’s a strategy.  I adopted it when I was lean and running marathons, so for me it’s a weight maintenance strategy, not a weight loss strategy.  I went from obese to lean using the conventional route; cutting calories, fats and sugars, plenty of complex carbohydrates in whole meal bread, and increasing exercise (initially with very long walks daily).
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #215 on: January 17, 2020, 05:16:52 PM »

You won’t put on pounds going off your diet for 4 days or a week.  To put on a single pound of fat, you need to have consumed an excess of 3500 kcals over expenditure.  A calorie is a calorie is a calorie.
For what purpose?

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Sugar isn’t addictive, just because it produces dopamine release in the pleasure centres of the brain, just like real addictive drugs that produce serious withdrawal symptoms, and sometimes death.  There are no withdrawal symptoms with sugar.
We disagree. The science is on my side.

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Your RCTs on your diet are short term studies of weight loss in the obese and overweight.  Of course, their blood lipid profiles are going to improve if they lose weight, and I completely accept that your diet is an effective strategy for losing weight, just like many other diets.

The evidence that it’s safe and healthy long term is just lacking.  Your proselytising for your diet is not justified by the evidence, because it just doesn’t exist.

The evidence that it improves risk factors for chronic diseases is pretty clear.

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And intermittent fasting isn’t a diet, it’s a strategy.  I adopted it when I was lean and running marathons, so for me it’s a weight maintenance strategy, not a weight loss strategy.  I went from obese to lean using the conventional route; cutting calories, fats and sugars, plenty of complex carbohydrates in whole meal bread, and increasing exercise (initially with very long walks daily).

It's a diet. It's an eating pattern. You may not like some kind of connotation of the term diet, but it's a diet.

It's also an anecdote.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #216 on: January 17, 2020, 05:53:02 PM »
The purpose?  To see if your anaerobic fitness is higher, lower or the same on a different diet.

The science isn’t on your side that sugars are physically addictive like real drugs of addiction, such as nicotine, opiates, alcohol, minor tranquillisers and (my favourite drug of addiction) caffeine.

Risk factors are just that.  Risk factors.  To know whether making some minor change in a risk factor affects long term health and life expectancy, you need long term studies.  Confusing risk factors with long term health bedevils the history of statins.  New more expensive statins get approval to be marketed based largely on their effect on the blood lipid profile, but whether they improve life expectancy depends on long term results.

Intermittent fasting is my weight maintenance strategy.  My diet is high carbohydrate/low fat vegetarian.  The diet is the food you eat, not when you eat it.

If intermittent fasting is a diet, then what’s yours?  Are you on the ‘have breakfast at 6 am diet?’  Or on the ‘have breakfast at 7 pm diet?’
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #217 on: January 17, 2020, 06:16:26 PM »
The purpose?  To see if your anaerobic fitness is higher, lower or the same on a different diet.

Something I don't care enough about to change my diet for one meal.

Also, four days would not be long enough to make that determination.
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The science isn’t on your side that sugars are physically addictive like real drugs of addiction, such as nicotine, opiates, alcohol, minor tranquillisers and (my favourite drug of addiction) caffeine.

That's false.

To be addictive a substance doesn't have to be a "real drug."


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Risk factors are just that.  Risk factors. 

Yes, they indicate an increased risk for diseases. They should not be ignored. (maybe you should be, reading your posts is probably a risk factor for something).
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If intermittent fasting is a diet, then what’s yours?  Are you on the ‘have breakfast at 6 am diet?’  Or on the ‘have breakfast at 7 pm diet?’

No. I'm on the eat when you're hungry, don't eat when your not hungry, stop eating when you're full or satisfied LCHF diet. Since there's no pattern to the hunger/satiety signals, that's not what makes it a diet. But there is a pattern to IF, and that makes it a diet.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #218 on: January 17, 2020, 09:13:04 PM »
Four days would be plenty of time to replenish your glycogen stores if the lack of skeletal muscle glycogen stores is the reason for the reduced anaerobic fitness in the study I’d cited previously.

For a substance to be addictive it has to cause physical withdrawal symptoms when it’s withheld.  Sugar doesn’t result in physical withdrawal symptoms when that happens, so it’s not an addictive drug.

A person can develop a liking for sugar because of its taste, and seek it out.  It can become a habit.  But it’s not an addiction.  Personally, I can’t stand the taste of it.

Risk factors for disease are determined on long term observational studies.  Determining whether making some minor modification of a risk factor by dietary manipulations or drug treatment results in better health and longer life expectancy requires long term observational studies, in case the dietary manipulation or drug treatment has unexpected side effects or complications.

So you’re on the erratic eating time and duration diet?
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #219 on: January 17, 2020, 09:24:02 PM »
Four days would be plenty of time to replenish your glycogen stores if the lack of skeletal muscle glycogen stores is the reason for the reduced anaerobic fitness in the study I’d cited previously.

The study you cited previously was worthless. Any issues that are raised in that study have nothing to do with my situation.

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For a substance to be addictive it has to cause physical withdrawal symptoms when it’s withheld.  Sugar doesn’t result in physical withdrawal symptoms when that happens, so it’s not an addictive drug.

You are wrong on both counts. First there is an established set of criteria that a substance or behavior must meet a minimum number of to be considered addictive. Withdrawal is one of several and not definitive.

Cutting off sugar to a sugar addict does result in physical withdrawal symptoms.
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A person can develop a liking for sugar because of its taste, and seek it out.  It can become a habit.  But it’s not an addiction.  Personally, I can’t stand the taste of it.

So another subjective opinion uninformed by science but presented as fact.

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Risk factors for disease are determined on long term observational studies. 

That is false.

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Determining whether making some minor modification of a risk factor by dietary manipulations or drug treatment results in better health and longer life expectancy requires long term observational studies, in case the dietary manipulation or drug treatment has unexpected side effects or complications.

Again, false. Drugs can reach the market with no long term studies showing their safety or effectiveness.

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So you’re on the erratic eating time and duration diet?

Some times.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #220 on: January 17, 2020, 09:51:38 PM »
The study I cited was of limited use, since it was small and of short duration (longer studies are necessary), but it is suggestive that glycogen depletion in skeletal muscle results in reduced anaerobic fitness.  It is as good as your RCTs studies of ketogenic diets in reducing body weight in the obese in determining whether ketogenic diets improve health and life expectancy.

Physical addiction has strict criteria.  Widening them to include sugar as addictive makes ‘addiction’ meaningless.  Withdrawing sugar has no physical withdrawal symptoms, so it’s not addictive.  I used to consume sugar when I was a teenager.  I don’t any more.  Stopping ‘cold turkey’ was easy.  What physical symptoms do you think people develop when they stop consuming sugar?

Risk factors for disease are determined by long term observational studies.  How do you think they’re determined?

Drugs certainly can reach the market without long term studies showing safety and efficacy.  They can also be removed, as with Vioxx, which was withdrawn after it was found to be increasing the rate of heart attacks.

So you’re on the off-and-on erratic eating time and duration diet?
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Offline CarbShark

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Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #221 on: January 17, 2020, 11:41:03 PM »
The study I cited was of limited use, since it was small and of short duration (longer studies are necessary), but it is suggestive that glycogen depletion in skeletal muscle results in reduced anaerobic fitness. 

No. Again, the first few days in a shift from high carb to low carb diets has a temporary effect of depleting muscle glycogen stores. As you become fat adapted those stores are fully replenished. A four-day study is irrelevant.



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It is as good as your RCTs studies of ketogenic diets in reducing body weight in the obese in determining whether ketogenic diets improve health and life expectancy.

No, the RCTs last weeks to years.


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Physical addiction has strict criteria.  Wiening them to include sugar as addictive makes ‘addiction’ meaningless. 


No. The criteria are not widened. That’s the point of having objective criteria.


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Withdrawing sugar has no physical withdrawal symptoms, so it’s not addictive. 

False. If you bothered to read the studies on food addiction you’d know withdrawal from sugar is a thing.

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I used to consume sugar when I was a teenager.  I don’t any more.  Stopping ‘cold turkey’ was easy.  What physical symptoms do you think people develop when they stop consuming sugar?

Again with the anecdotes? No one cares about your experience

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Risk factors for disease are determined by long term observational studies.  How do you think they’re determined?

Autopsies is one way.

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Drugs certainly can reach the market without long term studies showing safety and efficacy. 

Which directly contradicts what you just said in your last post

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They can also be removed, as with Vioxx, which was withdrawn after it was found to be increasing the rate of heart attacks.
Certainly. If long term LCHF diets were seen to have any detrimental effects we’d know about it.

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So you’re on the off-and-on erratic eating time and duration diet?

No. I’m on the LCHF eat when you’re hungry and don’t eat when you’re not hungry and stop eating when you’re full diet.

We call it keto for short.


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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #222 on: January 18, 2020, 01:52:23 AM »
CarbShark,

I’m going to stop responding to your spillover, since your obsessive quasi-religious proselytising of your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, but two final points:

Where is your evidence that ketogenic diets eventually result in restoration of skeletal muscle glycogen stores?  A recent review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6019055/#!po=64.2857

Indicates it’s not known.

And post mortems don’t indicate risk factors.  I was an anatomical pathologist, doing post-mortems.  Just because I see complicated atheromatous plaques containing a lot of fat, it doesn’t mean that dietary fat or blood fat caused the atheroma and is a risk factor.  The atheroma could have been caused by some other, such as inflammation, and the fat could then have passively leaked into the plaque as a result of the vessel wall becoming permeable.

To know whether dietary fat or high blood fats are risk factors, you need the long term observational studies.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #223 on: January 19, 2020, 10:34:08 PM »