Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 147889 times)

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Offline stands2reason

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1725 on: June 08, 2019, 05:12:05 PM »
I don't know, and neither does anybody else.

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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1726 on: June 15, 2019, 07:24:44 PM »
A study by Loren Cordain (who’s a proponent of the Palaeolithic Diet) in 2000 gives as the mean maximum tolerable protein intake for an 80 kg adult male as 250 g per day (with a range of 212 to 292 g), owing to the toxic effects of excessive amino acid consumption.

Incidentally, based on estimates of the plant based/animal based food ratios of diet in a large number of historical hunter-gatherer societies, and varying fat percentages of animal-based food sources, the proportion of carbohydrates to fat in the diet varied between 22%/58% and 40%/23%, none of which match CarbShark’s target of 10%/70% (although the higher carbohydrate diets are noted to be excessive in amino acids owing to an assumption of leaner meat, necessitating higher protein intake to replace calories from fat).

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/71/3/682/4729121
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Online CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1727 on: June 15, 2019, 08:57:31 PM »
A study by Loren Cordain (who’s a proponent of the Palaeolithic Diet) in 2000 gives as the mean maximum tolerable protein intake for an 80 kg adult male as 250 g per day (with a range of 212 to 292 g), owing to the toxic effects of excessive amino acid consumption.

Incidentally, based on estimates of the plant based/animal based food ratios of diet in a large number of historical hunter-gatherer societies, and varying fat percentages of animal-based food sources, the proportion of carbohydrates to fat in the diet varied between 22%/58% and 40%/23%, none of which match CarbShark’s target of 10%/70% (although the higher carbohydrate diets are noted to be excessive in amino acids owing to an assumption of leaner meat, necessitating higher protein intake to replace calories from fat).

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/71/3/682/4729121

The 10-20-70 ratio of carbs to protein to fat is for weight loss and weight loss maintenance. That wasn't an issue for hunter gatherer societies.

The 250g per day of protein would be 35% of calories, which is indeed high.



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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1728 on: June 15, 2019, 10:14:12 PM »
A study by Loren Cordain (who’s a proponent of the Palaeolithic Diet) in 2000 gives as the mean maximum tolerable protein intake for an 80 kg adult male as 250 g per day (with a range of 212 to 292 g), owing to the toxic effects of excessive amino acid consumption.

Incidentally, based on estimates of the plant based/animal based food ratios of diet in a large number of historical hunter-gatherer societies, and varying fat percentages of animal-based food sources, the proportion of carbohydrates to fat in the diet varied between 22%/58% and 40%/23%, none of which match CarbShark’s target of 10%/70% (although the higher carbohydrate diets are noted to be excessive in amino acids owing to an assumption of leaner meat, necessitating higher protein intake to replace calories from fat).

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/71/3/682/4729121

The 10-20-70 ratio of carbs to protein to fat is for weight loss and weight loss maintenance. That wasn't an issue for hunter gatherer societies.

The 250g per day of protein would be 35% of calories, which is indeed high.

Lonely Moa had claimed that the ‘Palaeolithic Diet’ (I put it in apostrophes since there’s no single diet in hunter-gatherer societies) is more typical of low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diets, whereas the estimates of macronutrient proportions don’t come close to ketogenic levels of carbohydrate intake.

That said, for about the umteenth time - I accept that ketogenic diets are perfectly acceptable, but I don’t accept that they’re  the ‘best’ diets, because there’s no evidence that they lead to longer life expectancy and health - because the studies haven’t been done (if you have the studies, then provide links to them).

I think that the best diet for attaining and maintaining a healthy body weight is the one that works for a person.  And it varies from person to person.  You proselytise for your ketogenic diet.  I don’t proselytise for my high carbohydrate/low fat vegetarian diet (which I think is effective mainly because I also use intermittent fasting, eating only one meal a day without snacks), and I don’t suggest that it’s for everyone.
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Online CarbShark

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LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1729 on: June 28, 2019, 01:22:20 AM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1730 on: June 28, 2019, 03:05:40 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Another one of your useless short term small studies.  16 subjects, who are markedly obese, on 4-week periods of 3 different diets.

If you want to claim that your diet diet is ‘best’ (and I accept that it’s a perfectly acceptable diet), then you need large long term studies showing that your diet is superior for attaining and maintaining a healthy body weight and body fat percentage, and is associated with superior health and longer life expectancy.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1731 on: June 28, 2019, 03:13:45 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Another one of your useless short term small studies.  16 subjects, who are markedly obese, on 4-week periods of 3 different diets.

If you want to claim that your diet diet is ‘best’ (and I accept that it’s a perfectly acceptable diet), then you need large long term studies showing that your diet is superior for attaining and maintaining a healthy body weight and body fat percentage, and is associated with superior health and longer life expectancy.

This is how science works. You seem to be expecting some kind of knockout punch that settles all issues once and for all. That's more like TV science than actual science.

This is just an answer to one more question: Is the beneficial effect of LCHF diets on metabolic syndrome due to weight loss? In this case the answer is no, LCHF diets show significant benefits for those with Metabolic Syndrome even without weight loss.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1732 on: June 28, 2019, 03:39:44 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.
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Online jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1733 on: June 28, 2019, 03:45:27 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Another one of your useless short term small studies.  16 subjects, who are markedly obese, on 4-week periods of 3 different diets.

If you want to claim that your diet diet is ‘best’ (and I accept that it’s a perfectly acceptable diet), then you need large long term studies showing that your diet is superior for attaining and maintaining a healthy body weight and body fat percentage, and is associated with superior health and longer life expectancy.

This is how science works. You seem to be expecting some kind of knockout punch that settles all issues once and for all. That's more like TV science than actual science.

This is just an answer to one more question: Is the beneficial effect of LCHF diets on metabolic syndrome due to weight loss? In this case the answer is no, LCHF diets show significant benefits for those with Metabolic Syndrome even without weight loss.


More accurately, that's what this one study showed.  A crossover study with 4-week periods conducted with 16 subjects is (perhaps surprisingly) sufficiently large for some metabolic outcomes. But in this study, the outcomes that were statistically significant had mostly modest p-values, it is not clear whether the reported variables comprised the full set of analyzed variables, whether the criteria for improvement in metabolic syndrome was selected in advance, or even whether the hypothesis itself was determined before the data were examined.  Compare the paper to its purported clinical trial registration; there is practically no correspondence. Even the number of arms disagrees!  Thre may be perfectly innocent reasons for these discrepancies, but one worrisome possibility is that the authors decided to drop one whole arm of the study from the analysis in order to produce positive findings.  If the study you report differs from the study you registered, you had better explain the discrepenies in the paper.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 04:11:12 PM by jt512 »
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Online jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1734 on: June 28, 2019, 03:47:07 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.


But seeing Jeff Volek lends suspicion.  At best, it's a wash.   ;)
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Online CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1735 on: June 28, 2019, 03:50:41 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.


But seeing Jeff Volek lends suspicion.  At best, it's a wash.   ;)

Phinney and Volek have done a lot of good work (Phinney is here too) 

What's your issue with Volek?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1736 on: June 28, 2019, 03:53:36 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


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Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.


But seeing Jeff Volek lends suspicion.  At best, it's a wash.   ;)

Phinney and Volek have done a lot of good work (Phinney is here too) 

What's your issue with Volek?


Let's just say that just from reading the title of the paper I was 90% confident that Volek would be an author.
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1737 on: June 28, 2019, 04:22:44 PM »

What's your issue with Volek?

Maybe he doesn't like power lifters?
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Online CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1738 on: June 28, 2019, 04:28:32 PM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.


But seeing Jeff Volek lends suspicion.  At best, it's a wash.   ;)

Phinney and Volek have done a lot of good work (Phinney is here too) 

What's your issue with Volek?


Let's just say that just from reading the title of the paper I was 90% confident that Volek would be an author.

Wow, I could say the same thing about numerous papers where Willet is an author.

I guess you can judge a paper by its title.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1739 on: June 29, 2019, 05:09:02 AM »
Dietary carbohydrate restriction improves metabolic syndrome independent of weight loss


https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/128308

RESULTS. Despite maintaining body mass, low-carbohydrate (LC) intake enhanced fat oxidation and was more effective in reversing MetS, especially high triglycerides, low HDL-C, and the small LDL subclass phenotype. Carbohydrate restriction also improved abnormal fatty acid composition, an emerging MetS feature. Despite containing 2.5 times more saturated fat than the high-carbohydrate diet, an LC diet decreased plasma total saturated fat and palmitoleate and increased arachidonate.

CONCLUSION. Consistent with the perspective that MetS is a pathologic state that manifests as dietary carbohydrate intolerance, these results show that compared with eucaloric high-carbohydrate intake, LC/high-fat diets benefit MetS independent of whole-body or fat mass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seen Ron Krauss among the authors of the study lends a bit to the credibility of the study.


But seeing Jeff Volek lends suspicion.  At best, it's a wash.   ;)

Phinney and Volek have done a lot of good work (Phinney is here too) 

What's your issue with Volek?


Let's just say that just from reading the title of the paper I was 90% confident that Volek would be an author.

Wow, I could say the same thing about numerous papers where Willet is an author.

I guess you can judge a paper by its title.

It’s unsafe to argue from authority, but whatever Willet writes about nutrition is more likely to be true than what your ‘expert’ writes.

That said, i don’t have any particular objections against your linked paper, besides that it’s very small and very short term.  I don’t think that it’s implausible that if you’re morbidly obese, with type 2 diabetes, that a low carbohydrate diet would be beneficial.

But it says nothing about whether your diet is ‘best.’  To be able to claim that you’d need large, long term studies showing better facility of attaining and maintaining a healthy bloody weight and body fat percentage, and better health and life expectancy than any other possible diet.  These studies just don’t exist.
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